New Diver! Recommendations Please!

[caruso]

When I said, "careening off coral heads", i was merely paraphrasing comments from you and the other guy, like, "running into coral heads", "risk injury and damage to corals", "took out a large sponge",etc, (sounds a hella lot like "careening" to me)

It sounds like careening to you, but it's not. The universally accepted definition of careening is "to go forward quickly while going from side to side in an uncontrolled way" or "To lurch or swerve while in motion". That's not nearly the same as a diver hitting one or more coral heads while drift diving in a straight line.

And, me having been a full-time instructor there for many years, in point of fact, gives my perspective a very high degree of merit

No, saying "I'm an instructor so I'm right and you're wrong!" does not give your argument ANY degree of merit. There's a lot of bad instructors out there.

Whether or not I'm being a jerk in no way detracts from the validity

Acting like a jerk (your words, your admission) erodes your credibility.

And I'm still waiting to hear y'alls view on people getting certified in Cozumel, because they're obviously as new and inexperienced as they come. Well ?

Just because Dive Ops and instructors in Cozumel make their living certifying new divers doesn't mean it's a good idea, nor any less destructive to the reefs when new divers with poor trim and buoyancy control make contact. I can only hope that when training students, instructors check conditions and bring their students to areas that have less challenging conditions. Or they don't take new divers out when conditions are too rough. As you know, being an instructor, conditions can vary considerably and good competent Ops will communicate with other boats to find the most suitable dive sites and provide the best experience for their customers.

Next time you're down, ask 20 local working divers

There you go again! Those "other 20 hypothetical divers" are not participating in this debate and your irrelevant comments about what other people might say if they were here speak volumes about you having nothing to bolster your side of the debate with. It's nothing more than saying "Well my dad can kick your dad's butt if he was here". Your dad isn't here Mark. But if he was I'm sure he'd take your side.

 

[Joneill]

No merit ?? Your post was full of logical fallacies and inaccuracies. When I said, "careening off coral heads", i was merely paraphrasing comments from you and the other guy, like, "running into coral heads", "risk injury and damage to corals", "took out a large sponge",etc, (sounds a hella lot like "careening" to me), so my comment was clearly a very fair and accurate paraphrase of YOUR comments, and hardly reduces my comments to having "no merit". That's completely illogical on it's face.
And, me having been a full-time instructor there for many years, in point of fact, gives my perspective a very high degree of merit, whether you two realize it or not. Again, that's just simple logic. Whether or not I'm being a jerk in no way detracts from the validity of the main point (as you attempt to establish).
Next time you're down, ask 20 local working divers if they think new divers should dive in other locales before coming to Cozumel, and I can almost guarantee all 20 will tell you no (and that's not out of financial self interest, as they don't want to see divers "running into coral heads....taking out large sponges" either.)
And I'm still waiting to hear y'alls view on people getting certified in Cozumel, because they're obviously as new and inexperienced as they come. Well ?

I guess I'm the other guy - please do show me exactly where you paraphrased me?

My comments were specifically directed at your minimization of the learning curve typically required for achieving good buoyancy control and trim for many divers. If it was quick and easy as you claim (even in brisk currents with newbies per your comment), then why do I see so many divers with poor buoyancy and trim out there? While it may not be rocket science as you said, it's far from a quick and easy concept to master for many and I see folks kicking up the bottom and corals quite often.

Also, in my opinion, to suggest it's no big deal for newly certified divers to be thrown into brisk currents as they'll learn quickly is pretty reckless (for both the newbie and the reefs) - especially for someone claiming to be an instructor.

Personally, I have no problem with a person getting certified in Cozumel - as long as they get instruction from an instructor who spends the time teaching proper technique and doesn't just throw newly certified divers into conditions they might not be ready for. Unfortunately, based on your comments, that appears to be the case - at least in your circle...

 

[Mark IV]

Dude, again, your post was full of fallacies and inaccuracies.

It sounds like careening to you, but it's not. The universally accepted definition of careening is "to go forward quickly while going from side to side in an uncontrolled way" or "To lurch or swerve while in motion". That's not nearly the same as a diver hitting one or more coral heads while drift diving in a straight line

So I loosely used the term "careening" in a commonly used and understood way, but since it technically didn't perfectly conform to the 100% literal dictionary definition, in your mind I might as well have said "potato" or "uranium". Gotcha.

No, saying "I'm an instructor so I'm right and you're wrong!" does not give your argument ANY degree of merit. There's a lot of bad instructors out there.

What gives my argument merit isn't so much that i was an instructor (though that does factor in, despite your refusal to grasp it), it's that I worked and played in that current on a nearly daily basis, for years, and I'm relating what I witnessed with my own eyes. The vast majority of the time, the under-water conditions simply do not make Cozumel a particularly risky or difficult place to dive for inexperienced divers. That isn't simply a lone opinion, it's a widely acknowledged fact.
Also, my competence as a scuba instructor isn't relevant to this discussion in the least. We're not debating the proper use of a compass, or how to do an emergency swimming ascent, we're talking about observable water conditions, and how divers interact with it, and my personal observations of all that, over many years.
You're trying to tell me I'm "wrong", when it was my friggin' JOB for 15 years !!! Seriously, who's being the idiot here???

Acting like a jerk (your words, your admission) erodes your credibility.

(sigh) Some reading comprehension would really go a long way here. Go read it again. I clearly did not "admit" to being a jerk. What I actually said was, "whether or not I'm a jerk" has no relevance to this debate (and it doesn't).

Just because Dive Ops and instructors in Cozumel make their living certifying new divers doesn't mean it's a good idea, nor any less destructive to the reefs when new divers with poor trim and buoyancy control make contact. I can only hope that when training students, instructors check conditions and bring their students to areas that have less challenging conditions. Or they don't take new divers out when conditions are too rough. As you know, being an instructor, conditions can vary considerably and good competent Ops will communicate with other boats to find the most suitable dive sites and provide the best experience for their customers.

These were all pretty much redundant observations that aren't in dispute. I've seen bad divers, in dead-calm water practically low-crawl and tumble over the reef, with the having current had nothing to do with it. Much of Cozumel diving is done in small,well-supervised groups, and the divemasters are quite good at assessing the skill and experience levels of their (usually) 3-6 divers, and helping them stay above the reef. It ain't that hard, I've done it a million times.
(oops, sorry, my bad, I didn't mean literally one million times !!! ).

There you go again! Those "other 20 hypothetical divers" are not participating in this debate and your irrelevant comments about what other people might say if they were here speak volumes about you having nothing to bolster your side of the debate with. It's nothing more than saying "Well my dad can kick your dad's butt if he was here". Your dad isn't here Mark. But if he was I'm sure he'd take your side.

Nice job deflecting, and sidestepping my point. But I'm confident you know full well that I was right. The majority of professional divers on Cozumel would dispute your rabidly clung-to contention that inexperienced certified divers have no business diving there because of Cozumel's big scary current.

 

[Mark IV]

I guess I'm the other guy - please do show me exactly where you paraphrased me?...

It shouldn't be that hard,bro. Read the three whole quotes i posted, and figure out which one came from one of your posts !

....then why do I see so many divers with poor buoyancy and trim out there? .
...

Though no one advertises it, it's a widely held opinion among divemaster and instructors ( at least that I ever knew, all over Cancun, Playa, Cozumel, etc.) that the overwhelming majority of certified divers can't dive their way out of a wet paper bag, regardless of how many dives they have under their belt. So even if Cozumel insisted on seeing a logbook with, say, 20 dives before they'd let you on a boat, you still wouldn't notice much of a difference. I can't count how many people I've seen on the boat, with premium gear, their bad-ass Nikonos camera, a jacket with patches all over on it from Palau,Truk, Fiji, Caymans,etc. and as often as not, they were still dog-paddling, silt-kicking gomers, LOL!!
So this contention that going to Roatan for a couple trips will prep you for seamlessly gliding over the reefs of Cozumel, doesn't really hold water.
So what exactly are you guys suggesting ? And why are you telling it to me? (like i have any influence). If y'all feel so strongly about this, get yer bad self involved, write the certifying agencies and the dive operators, send an article to Rodale's, start a campaign, pass around a petition, organize some candlelight vigils !!!! Start a movement to keep inexperienced divers out of the water until they reach a level of proficiency that meets your lofty standard !!!!
Now, are we still having fun here? I'm having fun! You guys having fun ?

 

[Joneill]

It shouldn't be that hard,bro. Read the three whole quotes i posted, and figure out which one came from one of your posts !


Though no one advertises it, it's a widely held opinion among divemaster and instructors ( at least that I ever knew, all over Cancun, Playa, Cozumel, etc.) that the overwhelming majority of certified divers can't dive their way out of a wet paper bag, regardless of how many dives they have under their belt. So even if Cozumel insisted on seeing a logbook with, say, 20 dives before they'd let you on a boat, you still wouldn't notice much of a difference. I can't count how many people I've seen on the boat, with premium gear, their bad-ass Nikonos camera, a jacket with patches all over on it from Palau,Truk, Fiji, Caymans,etc. and as often as not, they were still dog-paddling, silt-kicking gomers, LOL!!
So this contention that going to Roatan for a couple trips will prep you for seamlessly gliding over the reefs of Cozumel, doesn't really hold water.
So what exactly are you guys suggesting ? And why are you telling it to me? (like i have any influence). If y'all feel so strongly about this, get yer bad self involved, write the certifying agencies and the dive operators, send an article to Rodale's, start a campaign, pass around a petition, organize some candlelight vigils !!!! Start a movement to keep inexperienced divers out of the water until they reach a level of proficiency that meets your lofty standard !!!!
Now, are we still having fun here? I'm having fun! You guys having fun ?

I suggested nothing of the sort in terms of what you are trying to assign to me above - please do point out exactly where I suggested anything even remotely like what you are claiming. Oh, that's right - you can't as I never said any of it!

What I did say (but you still don't seem to comprehend) is that minimizing the difficulty of learning good buoyancy and trim is wrong and potentially harmful to both divers and reefs. So... before you call others clueless for calling you out, maybe do some self reflection as you were the one who posted this "gem":

"And even on the occasional days where the current is brisk, even beginner divers learn quickly and easily to stay off the bottom, and to avoid running into coral heads."

That's just not true - most beginner divers will struggle a bit in brisk current! I would never suggest diving in brisk current until you have a good basis of buoyancy and trim established as it can be dangerous if you are not in control.

Slight to mild drifts are not a problem (nor did I say that they were) - brisk currents are a different animal.

 

[Mark IV]

First off, the ripping currents, eddys, and downdrafts on Cozumel are more the exception than the daily norm, and when they do occur, these can present problems for even experienced divers, so even banning inexperienced divers ain't gonna change much. And, these conditions can develop, or subside unpredictably, so they can be tough to reliably avoid.
Naturally, a brisk current gives a new diver more to contend with, but it simply isn't a big deal to help new divers level off several feet above the bottom, and to avoid slamming into the reef (please, don;t anyone cite me for an incorrect use of the term "slamming").
Obviously, a new diver will have more difficulty getting neutral in a brisk current, particularly if he's trying to skim just above the bottom, but that's not where he should be, and any divemaster or instructor would naturally help them level off a bit higher. Once he levels out several feet higher, he has some maneuvering room and can easily fly along in even a speedy current, without much difficulty.
Obviously there are going to be exceptions, but in my years of teaching new divers, and dive-mastering boat trips, (in Cancun, Playa, Cozumel, Isla Mujeres, and Roatan, ) dealing with new divers and the Cozumel currents, these things generally just weren't a huge obstacle to overcome.
(Now that I think about it, I had much bigger problems with client's buoyancy while diving them on Villa Blanca beach, with minimal current and a flat sandy bottom, than I ever did on deeper boat dives).
And I'm not "minimizing" learning buoyancy skills, but the unpleasant reality is that the only way people are going to master buoyancy, is to get in the water and work it out, and if they're in the ocean, then it probably will involve some current, and some living reef, and even if people log a hundred dives in a dead-calm rock quarry, they're still going to face their first ocean current someday, and undesirable contact is still going to happen, short of a global ban on scuba diving.
Taking a couple trips to current-free Roatan, isn't going to prepare the diver for the maelstrom you guys seem to have pegged Cozumel's current as being, so it's a no-win situation. They're back to square-one the second they hit the water, so basically, you don't have any solution, you're just arguing to be arguing.
BTW, you can stop lecturing me on what "most beginer divers" will do, because i already know better than you do, having done it for a living for many years !!
Or is that unreasonable ?

 

[caruso]

Seriously, who's being the idiot here???

Safe diving.

 

[Joneill]

First off, the ripping currents, eddys, and downdrafts on Cozumel are more the exception than the daily norm, and when they do occur, these can present problems for even experienced divers, so even banning inexperienced divers ain't gonna change much. And, these conditions can develop, or subside unpredictably, so they can be tough to reliably avoid.
Naturally, a brisk current gives a new diver more to contend with, but it simply isn't a big deal to help new divers level off several feet above the bottom, and to avoid slamming into the reef (please, don;t anyone cite me for an incorrect use of the term "slamming").
Obviously, a new diver will have more difficulty getting neutral in a brisk current, particularly if he's trying to skim just above the bottom, but that's not where he should be, and any divemaster or instructor would naturally help them level off a bit higher. Once he levels out several feet higher, he has some maneuvering room and can easily fly along in even a speedy current, without much difficulty.
Obviously there are going to be exceptions, but in my years of teaching new divers, and dive-mastering boat trips, (in Cancun, Playa, Cozumel, Isla Mujeres, and Roatan, ) dealing with new divers and the Cozumel currents, these things generally just weren't a huge obstacle to overcome.
(Now that I think about it, I had much bigger problems with client's buoyancy while diving them on Villa Blanca beach, with minimal current and a flat sandy bottom, than I ever did on deeper boat dives).
And I'm not "minimizing" learning buoyancy skills, but the unpleasant reality is that the only way people are going to master buoyancy, is to get in the water and work it out, and if they're in the ocean, then it probably will involve some current, and some living reef, and even if people log a hundred dives in a dead-calm rock quarry, they're still going to face their first ocean current someday, and undesirable contact is still going to happen, short of a global ban on scuba diving.
Taking a couple trips to current-free Roatan, isn't going to prepare the diver for the maelstrom you guys seem to have pegged Cozumel's current as being, so it's a no-win situation. They're back to square-one the second they hit the water, so basically, you don't have any solution, you're just arguing to be arguing.
BTW, you can stop lecturing me on what "most beginer divers" will do, because i already know better than you do, having done it for a living for many years !!
Or is that unreasonable ?

You keep saying that I have suggested Cozumel's currents are a "maelstrom", when I've actually said nothing of the sort.

For the last time, I merely disagreed with your statement that newly certified divers quickly and easily adapt to brisk currents. You then decided to call me clueless.

For me, the tone/attitude of your replies here foster no respect regardless of your having "done it for a living for many years". I know what I've seen in my relatively short diving life: lots of folks do things for many years, but that doesn't mean they do them well. Peace out - nothing more to discuss and I'll just agree to disagree on the topic I actually posted about (versus the other stuff you made up).

 

[jonhall]

I'm looking into some trips to the keys, Cozumel, and Roatan (I've never even heard of Roatan before!)

Only posting again since you mentioned Coz. You got some great info on the first 3 pages of your thread before a recommendation was made that Coz would be a better trip to take later after more experience elsewhere because of the current (and then things got crazy!)

Since you are newer to diving, a college student, mentioned you are on a budget, mentioned warmer water locations, and I have the experience of being strictly a "vacation diver," I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.

Thinking about your trip and recreational diving, I look at it like this:
* If you have the opportunity (because of budget, travel logistics, or whatever) to go to a place that you wanted to go to, you should go. Who knows when you may get another chance?
* If you are comfortable in the water and somewhat competent/confident in your abilities, that is a plus as you will eventually be thrust into conditions you didn't expect or experience in previous dives. In my mind it doesn't make any difference where you go as you may have to adjust to the unexpected on the fly. You're always going to learn something new to carry over to future dives.
* If you are only able to dive/take a trip once a year (maybe because of work or school ), again, go to the place you want to go and enjoy yourself.
* Take this for what it's worth - I've only been to Coz during the months of July and Oct/Nov. Water was pretty calm and there was a slight current on every dive with the exception of 1 day when I termed the current moderate. That probably means I've been lucky and I haven't done enough diving there to experience something else, but I have been other places with much more current.

 

[nippurmagnum]

Complete nonsense. The vast majority of the time, the current in Cozumel is very mild, which is why Cozumel has long been known for excellent "drift diving". And even on the occasional days where the current is brisk, even beginner divers learn quickly and easily to stay off the bottom, and to avoid running into coral heads. It ain't rocket surgery, by any stretch. No one needs to take trips to other locations to get prepped for Cozumel, LOL! ,Heck, I would rather see a new diver doing a few dives with a divemaster in Cozumel, versus them doing shore dives, anywhere.
And Roatan for the most part, has very cloudy water, dead, brown reefs, and isn't within a light-year of having the quality of diving that Cozumel has. Also, as much as I love Roatan, Cozumel is also a vastly better locale to hang out and walk around, when not in the water.(I was a PADI and IANTD instructor, and full cave diver, having worked in both places)
That being said, that 2-for-1 deal at Anthony's Key you posted sounds pretty good, assuming a decent deal on a flight.

Cozumel is a delightful place, and I've done half a dozen dive trips there, including my very first open water dives. But the currents are not "very mild" -- which is precisely why Cozumel is known for excellent drift diving. IMO, for a beginner diver just starting out, Cozumel can be overly challenging. Not prohibitively so, maybe, but it is a very significant factor to consider.

It is true that visibility on the south side of Roatan can be murky at times for shore dives, but the north side (where Anthony's Key is located) does not have those issues. And I definitely disagree that coral in Roatan is "dead with brown reefs" -- I've found reefs to be remarkably healthy in Roatan, and marine life in the north is superior to that of Cozumel, IMO.

I do agree that Cozumel is livelier and safer than Roatan topside. But for a beginner diver looking to do a first trip, on a budget, I think Roatan is a better choice.