New diver experience and expectations at ‘resort’ setting

[Steve_C]

Good question; when he said:



I took 'here' to mean California, but he mentioned seeing turtles. I know sea turtles aren't unheard of with California diving, but I didn't think they were a mainstay, and it's still fairly early in the year.

Richard.

I do not know the answer but turtles, eels, and whales made me think of Hawaii. Also he talked of resorts.

 

[Aloha Joe]

Sorry I just moved to Hawaii. These were my first dives here.

 

[scrane]

Well, I assume everyone was a certified diver, and as such, it was the certifying shop that is responsible for verifying that the individual meet a certain skill level. If a certified diver has a deficit in skills or confidence level it is the diver's responsibility to correct them, possibility by contracting a private DM.

 

[Aloha Joe]

The comment about ‘handholding’ makes me think about that too. I guess it’s a bit of both - as certified divers we should be making sure we have buddies, do our checks, etc. But letting inexperienced divers on advanced boats, not giving us time to re-plan our dive with last minute dive site changes, and blindly hading out certs for drift diving experience is on the shop.

 

[jjardin]

I think I have gone out with these guys before, as well as their downtown shop in Kakaako. They are a mixed bag depending on who you have leading the dive or working in the shop. I kind of prefer not having overbearing staff directing dives--I actually found some of the dives done through the Kakaako shop a little too "guided".

The waters off Hawaii Kai can get some ripping current at times--and I actually was on some dives in October where the shop did the same thing you are describing. Negative entry--but not in a controlled manner, e.g. where everyone backrolls at the same time and decends together--but one by one entry off the stern. DM/leader first in the water, I was second, got to her (thankfully I had my freedive fins on)--pretty much everyone else struggled to meet up. Group finally somewhat together and we drift along--lots of turtles--but unfortunately someone came up missing and DM called the dive. Missing person had freaked out and surfaced to the boat. We were also offered the drift dive specialty as mentioned when we got back to the shop. I didn't take it.

Same shop we left Hawaii Kai and tied into a wreck (LSV????) where the current came up really strong towards the end of the dive. Dive was ok as there was shelter on the lee side of the wreck but coming up was ripping. I held onto the drift line and got back onboard ok, but 2 buddy groups couldn't hold on and were blown away. Get the biggest surface marker you can--by the time we got the divers who had managed to hold on aboard the other divers smbs were just barely visible--a good 1/2 mile away.

Hawaii diving can be pretty advanced--I thought most of the divers were only marginally in control--and some not. I had fun though, would go back.

 

[jonhall]

I was trying to understand the time frame of your 5 dives.The first day was 2 shallow dives, and the second day must have been 3 dives, with the second dive being the 100'+ wreck, and another dive that day being 100' also. Which day had the change of plans on the first dive due to the current and what depth was the other dive on day 2?

I did the advanced dive

What made this particular dive an advanced dive?

Nobody talked about having a buddy, the 2 dive masters didn’t mention buddies (told people to check their own gear), and nobody recalled the DMs ever saying anything about splitting into groups when underwater.

You will probably find as you dive with different ops that there will be many differences. Some DM's may have you buddy up, where one DM may keep signaling you to get closer to one another and another DM doesn't care so much. Some DM's may have you play follow the leader and others let you do your own thing, no matter what is said in the pre-dive briefing.

I can understand advanced dives being relaxed about pushing buddies,

There may be more of an importance for pushing buddies on an advanced dive.

they were giving out ‘drift diver specialty’ add-ons, AFTER the dive. “You’ve done these 2 dives, if you want the specialty you can read, watch a video, fill out a form and get your certification”. So basically they let people ‘take the test’ before learning the information, and not really paying attention to what those people did during the dive.

This sounds like they were trying to make a buck (as you alluded to "they need to make more money".) Drift Diver is a specialty on it's own, requires 2 dives, but since you didn't mention anything about staying close to a buddy or group - you described quite the opposite - or using a SMB, or having an instructor watch you perform any skills, the op was really negligent IMO. I wouldn't say that being in the water is "taking the test" before learning the information but that it is just a part of the whole process for obtaining the specialty. I think there is a written test that one has to take though unless they were going to let people skip that also.

With no time to re-plan I was separated from my buddy before we got in the water.

This example, along with all of the things you observed on your diving days, can be used to make you a better diver. Could you have not reconnected with your buddy once in the water? Because a DM says to check your own gear doesn't mean you can't ask someone to help/check your gear. Being comfortable with your own skills is what I'd suggest you shoot for and don't worry to much about others. There's a fun thread on SB about buddies and when to forget them and worry about keeping yourself safe.

looking for a shop that focuses on proper training

I would suggest finding a dive shop that actually takes time teaching classwork/skills as opposed to a resort that pushes you through everything in a few days. Stick with it!

 

[togatown]

.........

The air sharing was between 2 newer divers. One hit 500psi early in the dive. He told the DM, and rather than surface he was told to share air with another diver to extend his bottom time.......

Whaaaat, did this honestly happen?? If so, it seems the DM deserves to be caned, or at the very least stripped of his certification before he kills someone.

 

[Aloha Joe]

Whaaaat, did this honestly happen?? If so, it seems the DM deserves to be caned, or at the very least stripped of his certification before he kills someone.

It really happened!

I was trying to understand the time frame of your 5 dives.The first day was 2 shallow dives, and the second day must have been 3 dives, with the second dive being the 100'+ wreck, and another dive that day being 100' also. Which day had the change of plans on the first dive due to the current and what depth was the other dive on day 2? (Correct - day 2 was 3 advanced dives. First was drift/negative entry (originally was not going to be drift or negative entry), second was deep wreck, third was drift/negative entry


What made this particular dive an advanced dive? (Mostly Drift and depth)


You will probably find as you dive with different ops that there will be many differences. Some DM's may have you buddy up, where one DM may keep signaling you to get closer to one another and another DM doesn't care so much. Some DM's may have you play follow the leader and others let you do your own thing, no matter what is said in the pre-dive briefing.


There may be more of an importance for pushing buddies on an advanced dive.



This sounds like they were trying to make a buck (as you alluded to "they need to make more money".) Drift Diver is a specialty on it's own, requires 2 dives, but since you didn't mention anything about staying close to a buddy or group - you described quite the opposite - or using a SMB, or having an instructor watch you perform any skills, the op was really negligent IMO. I wouldn't say that being in the water is "taking the test" before learning the information but that it is just a part of the whole process for obtaining the specialty. I think there is a written test that one has to take though unless they were going to let people skip that also.



This example, along with all of the things you observed on your diving days, can be used to make you a better diver. Could you have not reconnected with your buddy once in the water? Because a DM says to check your own gear doesn't mean you can't ask someone to help/check your gear. Being comfortable with your own skills is what I'd suggest you shoot for and don't worry to much about others. There's a fun thread on SB about buddies and when to forget them and worry about keeping yourself safe. (I did find my buddy after a couple of minutes. I later heard she had an issue that held her up either on the boat or on the surface (not being able to descend). Her and I showed up together as newer divers making the decision to dive advanced, and having a plan to support each other as buddies through thick and thin. I did eventually find her and everything was fine, but for the first few minutes with everyone drifting rapidly and not within sight, I wasn’t happy with not knowing where she was. I could have assumed a DM was behind her but with all the shenanigans I was seeing, I didn’t have much confidence in the DMs. I also inquired (elsewhere) about Self Reliant diver and will take that when the time is right - just to be better prepared.)


I would suggest finding a dive shop that actually takes time teaching classwork/skills as opposed to a resort that pushes you through everything in a few days. Stick with it!

That’s the plan! I’m signed up for AOW with another dive shop on Friday. I told them I want to learn skills and won’t accept handouts.

 

[jonhall]

I’m signed up for AOW with another dive shop on Friday. I told them I want to learn skills and won’t accept handouts.

Would be interested in you starting another thread or preferably responding to this thread (so I don't miss it) about your AOW experience.

Keep in mind that AOW is a misnomer, and does not make you an "advanced diver". Unless you get in an AOW class with a good instructor that is going above and beyond, as I mentioned in previous post, AOW in a nutshell is completing 5 (2 required and 3 of your choice) adventure dives that give you the opportunity to fine tune skills learned in OW and briefly scratch the surface of other skills or activities you may have an interest in. Classwork is minimal if any. Repeat: you do not become an advanced diver - only 5 dives more experienced. You also will become more knowledgeable by doing the bookwork.

Unlike you (you have some goals for diving which I applaud), when I took AOW 1 ½ years ago I was looking to get through as easily and quickly as possible. I did mine on a trip in conditions that would be like most of my diving; warm water with generally good visibility, ~77º F water of the ocean instead of ~45º F water in a quarry. At that point I had 100 dives to my name and had already been drift, deep, night, and cenote diving multiple times. Had already used my compass on shore dives, penetrated wrecks, been carrying a camera (since around my 10th dive), did a shark experience, got EAN cert., been identified fish since carrying my camera, and have always been aware of where everything is on and around a boat. The peak performance buoyancy adventure dive which is one of the optional AOW dives is considered by many to be the most important of the adventure dives and through experience I was getting that down, although I have found this to a continuing education skill depending on conditions.

I wanted to simply get it done! I did the bookwork, which for me was reading only to find and write the answers to the question at the end of an adventure dive section. On the day we were doing one of the AOW dives, there was no training beforehand. My buddy, who was also getting AOW, and I simply had to perform a few skills for the instructor, who watched to be sure we could do them. When we got back we went into a room where an instructor asked us about and made sure we had the correct answers in the book. The dive and bookwork were then signed off on. It seems we had a pre-test before starting the course and one at the end. You can't fail! If you miss to many questions they will go over the missed questions with you and let you retake it (happened to my buddy.)

There are many divers here on SB that have 1000's of dives and no AOW (from what I have read) who are far more advanced in SCUBA than divers taking a course that somehow indicates one is an "advanced" diver.

As to why I took AOW myself, my reasoning was so I wouldn't be told by a dive op I couldn't do a particular dive because I didn't have the certification. It hasn't made a difference yet in what I could or couldn't do, the same as before I got it.

Hope your AOW experience is all that you want it to be.

 

[Colliam7]

I really enjoy diving and love to learn and share things I enjoy. I loved skiing and being an instructor, sharing my passion and watching people progress from beginners to independent and advanced skiers. At the same time, I have a hard time being taught PADI methods and skills and diving with people and shops that completely ignore the key fundamentals. I get that people come here for a short period of time and just want to dive and have fun, not necessarily learn or practice skills. But I also get that diving accidents can be deadly.

You describe some diver operator behaviors that are simply unacceptable and a bit scary. I think what you experienced was an unfortunate combination of 'resort operator complacency' - not entirely uncommon around the world, where there is a high volume of vacationing underwater tourists - and a culture of 'unprofessionalism' in a specific shop environment. I doubt it was a PADI shop issue, more likely this shop has fallen over time into a sense of false comfort - they have managed to do what they do for quite a while, never had a serious problem, so why change. It sounds like it is pervasive among the staff you encountered. In any organization, that kind of attitude and culture comes from the top, and over time a staff pattern emerges. Competent / conscientious staff either succumb to the lassitude of the environment, or leave in frustration, and what is left are staff members who perform as you describe.

I have seen that happen in a few shops, across multiple agencies. One shop comes to mind, that has an established reputation for cutting corners, and failing to follow agency standards. They have been serially affiliated with multiple agencies over time (PADI, NASE, NAUI, SSI, possibly others), and they have been consistent in their (poor) behavior. Another shop that had a long standing reputation for mediocre training seemed to turn a corner after becoming affiliated with PADI. As much as I would like to believe that the agency affiliation was the change agent, I think it was probably the coincidental hiring of one particularly conscientious instructor who declined to join the 'race to the bottom', and set a professional tone that encouraged other instructors to clean up their act.

This thread is a useful educational read for other, newer divers, and I appreciate you posting. I don't take your comments as an attempt to bash a particular shop, rather you pointed out concerns about safety and adherence to professional standards that you, as a newer diver have.

There’s 1 other ‘5 star dive instructor training’ shop that I signed up with and I’m hoping it will be a better experience - supposedly it’s more of a locals shop which should help. I also want to check out the dive shop that focuses more on tech diving - maybe they’ll be a little more skills oriented too...

As was mentioned, please do follow up with a summary of your next experience.

If you made it this far, thanks so much for reading

You are welcome! Keep YOUR standards and expectations up and you will continue to develop as a safe, competent diver. There are many good operators out there, affiliated with PADI as well as a variety of other agencies.