New diver experience and expectations at ‘resort’ setting

[Jayfarmlaw]

Whaaaat, did this honestly happen?? If so, it seems the DM deserves to be caned, or at the very least stripped of his certification before he kills someone.

Is the issue waiting until 500psi to switch to the buddies air, or is is sharing air to extend a dive period?

This is a common occurrence in Cozumel and our one trip to Roatan. My wife has a very low sac rate, when I hit 1000 psi, I will get on her hose. When she hits 1000 psi, I go back to breathe my tank down to 500-700 or so and begin my ascent, depending on depth at the time. By that point, usually the group is ready to surface. I have shared air with the DM before as well. The "hose of shame" simply extends everybody's dive. My wife and I are comfortable doing this and I inform the DM before hand that if he sees me on her octo, it's a plan and every thing is ok. We leave for Belize on the 28th and the hose of shame will go with us.

Jay

 

[togatown]

Is the issue waiting until 500psi to switch to the buddies air, or is is sharing air to extend a dive period?

This is a common occurrence in Cozumel and our one trip to Roatan. My wife has a very low sac rate, when I hit 1000 psi, I will get on her hose. When she hits 1000 psi, I go back to breathe my tank down to 500-700 or so and begin my ascent, depending on depth at the time. By that point, usually the group is ready to surface. I have shared air with the DM before as well. The "hose of shame" simply extends everybody's dive. My wife and I are comfortable doing this and I inform the DM before hand that if he sees me on her octo, it's a plan and every thing is ok. We leave for Belize on the 28th and the hose of shame will go with us.

Jay

Jay- Your profile shows you are an experienced diver, so I assume you are very comfortable with the practice. Maybe I'm totally wrong, but as a much less experienced diver, I just can't imagine someone totally brand new to diving, being instructed to do that right out of the gate. What if the new diver inhales water, gags and then panics during a switch and the DM is not paying attention to them. Wherever we go, I want to feel confident in the DM.

 

[tursiops]

Keep in mind that AOW is a misnomer, and does not make you an "advanced diver"

AOW is a perfectly good name; it just means advanced beyond OW.

 

[tursiops]

Sorry this is long - I love diving, learning, and sharing things and am passionate about this.

I got certified in October and had 9 dives before this weekend. I just did my first 2 days of diving here (5 dives) and have mixed feelings about what I experienced. This is with a PADI 5-star Dive Instructor Training shop which is away from the main resort location. I chose this type of shop because I want to get my AOW and told them I’m looking for a shop that focuses on proper training and safety. I am/was considering getting involved as a dive pro, but if this is ‘the norm’ here then I don’t want to be a part of it.

The good: my second dive yesterday was AMAZING! It was a wreck dive to 100-110ft (?) We saw wales along the way, saw eels, turtles, rays, fish, and all kinds of stuff around the wreck. I made sure I had a buddy for this day and we did pre-dive check, had a dive plan, etc for that dive and it was fun. I made friends the first day, we all went out together afterwards, and I’ve been surfing and diving with for 3 days with some people I met on my first dive trip here.

The not so good: First day (2 tank) was afternoon shallow dives along a reef and mostly all divers with around 10 dives experience. Nobody talked about having a buddy, the 2 dive masters didn’t mention buddies (told people to check their own gear), and nobody recalled the DMs ever saying anything about splitting into groups when underwater. One guy was down to 500psi so the DM had him share air so he could extend his dive (breathing off someone’s octo and staying down).

We all went to dinner afterwards - 2 others shared my feelings, and it seems they were the only 2 that didn’t get certified at a resort. Some of the others didn’t think any of this was that big of a deal, but from discussions I gather they weren’t taught or don’t remember a large portion of the PADI OW skills. I asked the DMs about the ‘advanced’ dives and was told that they basically let anyone go since they need to make money. But I was told I looked comfortable so I should be fine. I was told the water can be more rough, more of a current, and there would be less instruction, and I was OK with that. We were told ‘it’s not like you just hop off the boat and drop to 100 feet” but that’s exactly what ended up happening.

I did the advanced dive and it was a similar crowd - not much diving experience. One girl who had been diving with this shop for 3 days was having panic attacks and only did 1/2 of her 3 days worth of diving (only 1 of the 3 advanced dives) and should not have been on an advanced boat. One guy came out of the water and needed to go to the hospital (maybe not dive shop’s fault, but maybe he wasn’t qualified or in shape to be on advanced dive?) For the first dive there was a last minute change of dive plans due to current - I had a buddy, made a dive plan, etc. and at the last minute we were told to do a ‘negative entry drift dive’ and were told to rapidly fire off the back of the boat. With no time to re-plan I was separated from my buddy before we got in the water.

Last comment (I could write so much more ) they were giving out ‘drift diver specialty’ add-ons, AFTER the dive. “You’ve done these 2 dives, if you want the specialty you can read, watch a video, fill out a form and get your certification”. So basically they let people ‘take the test’ before learning the information, and not really paying attention to what those people did during the dive. As much as I want to continue my training, I declined as ‘taking the test’ before being taught the material is against my belief system.

I really enjoy diving and love to learn and share things I enjoy. I loved skiing and being an instructor, sharing my passion and watching people progress from beginners to independent and advanced skiers. At the same time, I have a hard time being taught PADI methods and skills and diving with people and shops that completely ignore the key fundamentals. I get that people come here for a short period of time and just want to dive and have fun, not necessarily learn or practice skills. But I also get that diving accidents can be deadly.

There’s 1 other ‘5 star dive instructor training’ shop that I signed up with and I’m hoping it will be a better experience - supposedly it’s more of a locals shop which should help. I also want to check out the dive shop that focuses more on tech diving - maybe they’ll be a little more skills oriented too...

If you made it this far, thanks so much for reading

This is appalling, especially the Drift Diver card give-away. If you don't name the shop that did this, you are part of the problem. Sorry to be so harsh, but one BIG reason there are so many shoddy operations is nobody calls them on it.

 

[Jayfarmlaw]

Jay- Your profile shows you are an experienced diver, so I assume you are very comfortable with the practice. Maybe I'm totally wrong, but as a much less experienced diver, I just can't imagine someone totally brand new to diving, being instructed to do that right out of the gate. What if the new diver inhales water, gags and then panics during a switch and the DM is not paying attention to them. Wherever we go, I want to feel confident in the DM.

I think I see the issue. If these were instructional dives or part of a class I would expect more attention from the instructor or DM. If these were purely recreational dives, there are several schools of thought on the roles of a DM, and they seem to vary by location and even shop to shop. Several posts in this thread have already addressed the same point.

My frame of reference is that a divers safety is that divers sole responsibility unless they have paid for a DM/instructor to provide them personal attention such as a class or a private DM.

Some places, the boat is merely a ride to the dive site and if the diveop puts a DM in the water, it is merely as a dive guide. The divers safety is the divers responsibility and they are expected to have mastered all the basic skills necessary to complete the dive. I would consider a regulator swap in that category and apparently the diver handled it fine. By signing the release, and showing the open water card, the diver acknowledges that they have the skill necessary to complete the dive. If it is their first openwater dive, or their 200th, the responsibility of the DM is the same. I have seen some shops require a private DM if less than a certain number of dives or have not dove similar conditions in the last year.

On the other hand, Places like Cozumel, with lots of new divers, diveops basically put a babysitter DM in with new divers. I consider myself a competent diver and know how to handle leg cramps, but on a dive last year when I thought the DM was not paying attention, I had to stretch out a cramp. Before I got my leg fully stretched...he had closed considerable distance and was checking on me. I was surprised how fast he got there. I didn't need him, but he was there immediately. I realized he saw more than I thought. Once you have shown you are a competent diver, they let you do more of your own thing. If you want or need additional attention, hiring a private DM to dive with you is always an option.

I do not know what the standard is for Hawaii, or even the particular shop at issue. Given that in order to get their c card, they had to do multiple reg swaps in the pool and openwater, I would expect ANY diver to be able to pull that one off without a hitch. If they can't, a refresher course, private DM, or Golf are always options.

In this case the DM did not meet the OP's (and several others)expectations. Some DMs are better than others, some shops are better than others, and better is a purely subjective standard. It does seem like this one is a card mill but my expectation of a dive op is to get me on a boat, get me in the water, and get me back to shore.

Safe travels,
Jay

 

[Colliam7]

f you don't name the shop that did this, you are part of the problem. Sorry to be so harsh, but one BIG reason there are so many shoddy operations is nobody calls them on it.

I can appreciate the sentiment, but I will disagree with the approach. Naming the shop in public may not be a solution. Communicating with the agency (PADI) in this case is probably a better approach. Where I will fully agree is that this kind of operational behavior should be documented, reported. and evaluated by a reasonably independent 3rd party.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

It really happened!

That’s the plan! I’m signed up for AOW with another dive shop on Friday. I told them I want to learn skills and won’t accept handouts.

And how will you know that you have really learned skills? Are you discussing the performance requirements and their interpretation of what mastery of those skills means, as the mainstream agencies (of which I am an instructor) have vague definitions of what comfortable, fluid, and repeatable means. That is where the instructor makes the difference. If you have the chance, order @Jim Lapenta's books off Amazon (James Lapenta). If you have a Kindle, you can be reading them within minutes.

 

[Aloha Joe]

Interestingly...

I did a shore dive today with one of the DMs from the ‘Advanced’ trip I was on. Predive briefing: “there’s a cooling water exit pump from a power plant. The water is warm with a strong current. Don’t swim in the current, it will push you out. You can see it.” The DM proceeds to lead us right into the current, we get pushed way out and have to surface to regroup. 2 divers end up missing and we have to swim the long haul back to shore without them. I don’t know what happened but I did see one of the 2 missing divers at the end of the day.

The second dive was better, except nobody was using a dive flag and we were at ~10ft. I heard a noise, looked up and there were personal watercraft zooming above. Some were closer to the surface than me but nobody got hit/hurt.

I have my reasons for not publicly shaming the dive op, but I will write to the PADI regional rep.

 

[Aloha Joe]

Would be interested in you starting another thread or preferably responding to this thread (so I don't miss it) about your AOW experience.

Hope your AOW experience is all that you want it to be.

Maybe it’s part expectations but AOW (through another dive shop) was disappointing. I signed up for PPB. We didn’t do half of the required skills/activities that I had to sign and say were completed. I nonchalantly brought it up with the shop owner, who said “it’s just to make sure you have decent buoyancy control”. But in my opinion, I learned to control breathing to manage buoyancy when horizontal, but never got to understand trim or what happens when I’m not horizontal. Maybe it’s not a big deal but I paid money to learn skills. The adventure dives changed daily so I wasn’t able to pre-read the material, and was given wreck at the end ‘since we saw a wreck’ but never talked about the skills, preparation, etc.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Maybe it’s part expectations but AOW (through another dive shop) was disappointing. I signed up for PPB. We didn’t do half of the required skills/activities that I had to sign and say were completed. I nonchalantly brought it up with the shop owner, who said “it’s just to make sure you have decent buoyancy control”. But in my opinion, I learned to control breathing to manage buoyancy when horizontal, but never got to understand trim or what happens when I’m not horizontal. Maybe it’s not a big deal but I paid money to learn skills. The adventure dives changed daily so I wasn’t able to pre-read the material, and was given wreck at the end ‘since we saw a wreck’ but never talked about the skills, preparation, etc.

That’s disappointing that you had such an experience. I sincerely hope you never encounter that again, as that really sucks