new cave diver

[TSandM]

Well, the problem is that it simply isn't POSSIBLE to expose a student to conditions of high flow in the caves in Mexico that are suitable for students. In fact, in all the diving I've done down there, I've encountered moderate flow ONCE, on an entry from the sea that I wouldn't have recommended to any Intro Diver, let alone a student. So how is someone supposed to learn to manage flow, in an area where there isn't any? And if your answer is that everyone should get their training in FL, I just plain don't agree.

 

[PfcAJ]

There's a scare culture around high flow caves.

People (instructors mostly) talk it up like its this insurmountable obstacle, then refer people to instructors (aka their friends and colleagues) to guide for a day or more at a ridiculous rate. This is far more lucrative that simply teaching the techniques, even if its just an in depth lecture.

Youre being had.

 

[LiteHedded]

Well, the problem is that it simply isn't POSSIBLE to expose a student to conditions of high flow in the caves in Mexico that are suitable for students. In fact, in all the diving I've done down there, I've encountered moderate flow ONCE, on an entry from the sea that I wouldn't have recommended to any Intro Diver, let alone a student. So how is someone supposed to learn to manage flow, in an area where there isn't any? And if your answer is that everyone should get their training in FL, I just plain don't agree.

They are able to fly there for fun dives why not training? I dunno. If they never come to Florida it isn't an issue. Florida isn't the only place with high flow caves.

i just don't know why they should score a card that allows them to dive ginnie springs for example if they lose their marbles and all situational awareness as soon as the flow hits em is all

---------- Post added August 18th, 2013 at 12:01 PM ----------

I don't get this logic. I seem to recall you and AJ doing a dive in Ginnie with someone who was Intro and turned the dive before the keyhole because of a blasting headache more than once? I seem to recall that was the same year his instructor issued more cards than any other NACD instructor. We've both dove Ginnie/Peacock on the weekends enough to know that all a FL card would tell anyone is that you were able to bulldoze into the cave long enough or exit slow enough to meet the minimum dive time.

Given first hand knowledge of this, and the fact that the last CDS conference was on the crappy training going on recently, I don't know that we really want to identify ourselves as "FL" cave divers.

That wasn't us you're thinking of. I did do a dive with that kid once but it wasn't at ginnie. It was god awful. NACD instructor of the year's student that was. He no longer cave dives and last I checked his instructor is having some legal troubles...

 

[ucfdiver]

That wasn't us you're thinking of. I did do a dive with that kid once but it wasn't at ginnie. It was god awful. NACD instructor of the year's student that was. He no longer cave dives and last I checked his instructor is having some legal troubles...

Sorry, you're right. Now that you mention it I recall that he had told me that he never made it to the keyhole during his intro to cave training.

 

[karstdvr]

Okay, karstdvr, you and your one-upmanship win! Collect the kitty!

Not my intention,but the bottom line is caves haven't flowed the same since the prolonged drought,and development. With this summer being very rainy,and agriculture not having to withdraw as much water,we may see some stronger flows. Some people will comment that flows are so strong because they got their experience in lower flow conditions,but will find the same place has a charged aquifer. To me high flow caves are like a puzzle,and learning/studying the cave to figure where to be to reduce work effort,plus reduce my need to pull and drag.

 

[PfcAJ]

no FL cave diver has had to cope with the kind of navigational weirdness (like six inch reach gaps) that we see in Mexico.

You're right, we don't deal with that because its stupid. Make it a T or make it a jump. That doesn't mean we (Florida folk) don't have to pay attention to the line though. Even here, you can end up on the wrong line if you're a space cadet and not paying attention.

 

[karstdvr]

There's a scare culture around high flow caves.

People (instructors mostly) talk it up like its this insurmountable obstacle, then refer people to instructors (aka their friends and colleagues) to guide for a day or more at a ridiculous rate. This is far more lucrative that simply teaching the techniques, even if its just an in depth lecture.

Youre being had.

Of course you could do the Pheonix University method
LFE.com Course details - How to Dive a High Flow Cave

 

[PfcAJ]

I consider Mark a pretty good friend, mentor, and instructor (he taught my cave 1), and I dive with him from time to time. I still think that its complete BS to charge people extra for what should already be included in a proper cave class. If someone can make a little tutorial and try and profit from it, the same folks can put that material in a $2000 cave diving course and help to eliminate this stigma that Ginnie, LR, and JB have to the mexico crew.

There's just no justification for SO many people to be petrified of whats truly nothing more than a current. The same folks can dive well in an ocean current, but put rocks above them and everyone loses their minds.

 

[Quero]

There's just no justification for SO many people to be petrified of whats truly nothing more than a current. The same folks can dive well in an ocean current, but put rocks above them and everyone loses their minds.

That's an interesting observation and one that I was wondering about. I was thinking that although I did wear three fingerprints off at Ginnie during my training there, I really didn't find the flow that much of a challenge, even though my instructor said that the flow was relatively high at that time (due to a lot of water coming down from Georgia or something???). I am quite used to diving in ocean currents, sometimes in places where there are really big currents, like at Komodo, and I know how to deal with it, so the flow in itself didn't stress me out too much. (I've been told since that the finger thing was a poor grip technique more than anything, and that instructors don't tell you this ahead of time as it's sort of a rite of passage.) Now I've seen lots of divers with a fair amount of experience, including drift diving experience in places like Cozumel which you guys over there in North America think are hairy currents, taken by surprise by some of our currents here in Asia, so maybe that's it. Could it be a case of divers doing these caves with flow without very much experience in keeping from being blown around by an ocean current?

For me, the only challenge with the flow was staying steady to lay line and unwrap it to reel it back up.

 

[karstdvr]

I consider Mark a pretty good friend, mentor, and instructor (he taught my cave 1), and I dive with him from time to time..

I agree Mark is a stand up person,and I like this course that he did from the bits I have seen. To go askew for a moment I really hate to see the practice of racoon tailing stages like in the :19 to :26 mark of the video. I know this is something that you guys do,but it really has a huge impact on the cave. I remember seeing someone coming out the Eye with two stages on the crotch strap and sticking straight up from being positive,and it was beating the **** out of the cave. I am sure it is a practice that works well in big cave like Wakulla,but when passing small areas like the key hole,lips etc,there is no control of these tanks,and it sure is tough on the cave. Off soapbox.