Negligent Instructor?

[novadiver]

I don't think that you are rambling, but from your post it appears that we are back at square one.

So maby, is there something else instructors should do to swing the verdict in their favor besides agency standards?
Approach of Xanthro and AADiveRex make sense.
But if we add to the SDI standards or change them are we exposing our selves to liability because we are not following "proven standards"?

One thing that no one has touched on is the fact that a defence lawyer can now call thousands of certified solo divers to testify on the behalf of SDI. This alone makes solo diving part of the mainstream, and also shows "proven standarts" of training.

 

[PRL]

...which brings us to: what if the dive-buddy is an instructor too, but not diving in that capacity? Should we suddenly start requireing liability-releases and the like when just doing "fun-diving" together as buddies?

(and while this is a serious post: should we all just sign up for solo-diving classes and never dive with buddies again? )

Well, if the instructor is NOT being paid he should be not held responsible as an instructor.
Just like a doctor at an accident site, as long as he is not getting paid (compensated) he is protected by "good samaritan" laws.

Proffesional=paid for a service

 

[PRL]

If you teach an OW class, you are effectively diving solo

I agree with you to a point.
IMO a solo diver has the luxury of NOT being responsible for anyone else, so an instructor IMO is not a solo diver. Might not enjoy all the benefits of buddy diving, and be at a greater risk than a solo diver, but still not a solo diver.

BTW, with OW students the instructor should not be very deep and a normal ascend in face of trouble is possible, and should be close enough to his students to be able to grab the students octo if the need arrives. If the training is other than OW, than the students should be experienced enough to render assistence. This is not the case of a solo diver

 

[PRL]

One thing that no one has touched on is the fact that a defence lawyer can now call thousands of certified solo divers to testify on the behalf of SDI. This alone makes solo diving part of the mainstream, and also shows "proven standarts" of training.

Good point. It will be interesting to see a case like that to go to trial.

 

[PRL]

The cert card is to show you have done something to train yourself in that area.

So is a Log book, but it will not grant you entry to most places even if all your dives were succesful solo dives.
I do agree that the intent of the card is to show......, but the reality is somewhat different and if you can show a solo card usually no other criteria has to be met to dive solo. So the solo card is a key that opens the door to dive solo (Grants entry)

 

[Scuba]

I see the credibility-issue only if we're *not* being prudent: in selecting unsuitable sites and conditions, or in diving with insufficient equipment for self-sufficiency.

My reference was to the position advocated by many against solo diving. It's dangerous and should never be practiced. When someone is an advocate of this position in his professional capacity, and then practices otherwise by diving solo on his personal time, a contradiction arises.

Buddy divers should be self sufficient, and in time most become. Yet, as PRL noted, there exist fundamental differences between the buddy and solo approach to diving. Generally, even today, most proponents of solo diving accept the flawed difinition of solo diving proposed by those opposed to solo diving.

if someone asks me my opinion on solo-diving, I'll say that it's inheritly dangerous and should not be attempted....which it IMHO is, to the person who needs to ask me that question.

And I would encourage you to do so, and explain why it is dangerous. Quite frankly, I wish there were more out there pointing out the dangers of cave, wreck, deep, and other such dangerous diving practices. Mincing no words. Not just warning in a way that steers towards training and risk management, but also towards avoidance. A clear explanation of the dangers one is exposed to. What it takes. How some are just not suitable for it. How those who are candidates for it should be fully willing and capable of undertaking the necessary requirements for safety.

 

[spthomas]

We tend to minimize the risks involved in diving period. In some cases, this is good. Diving has risk, but not inordinate risk. It's no more dangerous than many other activities. So realistically advising people of the risk is prudent.

I do think we minimize the risks when describing or advertising our sport a lot in the name of marketing. If we scare folks, they won't want to try it. This can be a problem. So our responsibility to potential divers and the public is to apprise them realistically of the risks involved in diving. Not the "jaws will get you, or you'll get left in the ocean" hype, which overstates risk. But not "it's FINE, it's PERFECTLY SAFE" approach that understates risk. A reasonable, fair appraisal of risk.

We should do the same for Solo diving, and Tek diving, and Cave diving, etc. "It's too dangerous, we should NEVER do it" may overstate risk, whether talking about cave, deep, wreck, deep, or solo diving. But "it's fine, it's just diving" understates risk.

 

[northcoast_diver]

Von Maier's book on Solo Diving is excellent because he has thought through everything that could possibly go wrong on a solo dive, and therefore he gives you recommendations to minimize the risk.

A training agency will have teaching standards of their own, and will also have an insurance company with lawyers contractually willing to go to bat for them, as long as the pre-written standards are followed.

Since you guys have meandered onto the subject of risk, that is how you minimize risk -- both physical risk and legal risk.

 

[wolf eel]

[So is a Log book, but it will not grant you entry to most places even if all your dives were succesful solo dives.]

A log book tells nothing at all. Loads of people lie all the time to get onto dives and classes.

The idea of a C card for Solo diving is the "key" it is also the "key" if you use your O/W for air. Thats the idea of a card. The card shows you did a course and that you have passed and showed an instructor you can do the skills needed. That does not imply that when the poop hits the fan you will do all you have been taught just that you fully understand what can happen and that you are on your own.

The idea that solo diving is wrong is just a little silly. Diving has changed over the years we no longer have crapy gear with out gages. We all dive with an octo and if we pay attention one should never have any real trouble. If you climb solo and the poop hits the fan then you are also alone. I must admit it is odd to hear how many Solo divers have out of air accents and gear fairlure. Is it because nobody is there to see this or is it because experience kills when not applied ?

I feel loads of people use the solo diving troubles as a way to get conversation and to draw attention to them selves.

Cheers
Derek

 

[PRL]

Show me one post on here that anyone said that that solo diving is wrong, This topic is about courts in the USA and a jury might see a solo card as a key of entry.
Trolling is pointless

A log book tells nothing at all. Loads of people lie all the time to get onto dives and classes.

The idea of a C card for Solo diving is the "key" it is also the "key" if you use your O/W for air. Thats the idea of a card. The card shows you did a course and that you have passed and showed an instructor you can do the skills needed. That does not imply that when the poop hits the fan you will do all you have been taught just that you fully understand what can happen and that you are on your own.

The idea that solo diving is wrong is just a little silly. Diving has changed over the years we no longer have crapy gear with out gages. We all dive with an octo and if we pay attention one should never have any real trouble. If you climb solo and the poop hits the fan then you are also alone. I must admit it is odd to hear how many Solo divers have out of air accents and gear fairlure. Is it because nobody is there to see this or is it because experience kills when not applied ?

I feel loads of people use the solo diving troubles as a way to get conversation and to draw attention to them selves.

Cheers
Derek