Negligent Instructor?
- Thread starter PRL
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novadiver
Contributor
PRL:
If a dive buddy can claim stupidity you just made my piont about solo diving,I know when I solo dive I fill out a special waver and release , that releases everyone for my actions even if it is there fault. You can find a copy of this release on the SDI web sight, This should answer all your questions about the legal part of SOLO diving Thanks
Scuba
Contributor
Interesting question. Not a lawyer. I do have a few comments in general.
Regardless of the stance taken by the majority of the dive industry, I would find it extremely difficult, actually, I find it impossible that anyone can prove solo diving is a reckless or negligent way to dive. To prove this you would have to compare solo to other higher risk types of diving such as the tech courses. There is no law against any form of diving, that I am aware of.
The issues of liability would be the same as for any other dive course. Solo is not some daredevil form of diving some seek to portray it as, without any conclusive evidence or sound persuasive argument, I might add. If you want to talk about apparent risk, lets talk about deep freediving, now that seems crazy to me. But, I suppose that too can be practiced relatively safe. And there is freediving instruction available, it even precedes SCUBA, I believe. Don't know of any statistics on free diving. Solo, higher risk diving as tech diving is one thing, in a class by itself with a much greater risk level verging on reckless - is not the case.
Regardless of the stance taken by the majority of the dive industry, I would find it extremely difficult, actually, I find it impossible that anyone can prove solo diving is a reckless or negligent way to dive. To prove this you would have to compare solo to other higher risk types of diving such as the tech courses. There is no law against any form of diving, that I am aware of.
The issues of liability would be the same as for any other dive course. Solo is not some daredevil form of diving some seek to portray it as, without any conclusive evidence or sound persuasive argument, I might add. If you want to talk about apparent risk, lets talk about deep freediving, now that seems crazy to me. But, I suppose that too can be practiced relatively safe. And there is freediving instruction available, it even precedes SCUBA, I believe. Don't know of any statistics on free diving. Solo, higher risk diving as tech diving is one thing, in a class by itself with a much greater risk level verging on reckless - is not the case.
I see your point Scuba. The consern I have is that other high risk activities are sanctioned by relavant training organizations. Tech courses have a strict standard and to my knowledge all agencies support some sort of standards for the discipline. So the reasonable and prudent person would adhere to those standards. Deep freediving enjoys a similar situation. Solo on the other hand is considered by most agencies as a ******* at best. It is not dificult to find official literature by diving agencies why they do not support solo diving, even SDI supports buddy diving and only changes its standards for solo course. So if majority rules it can be argued that a reasonable and prudent instructor would not teach solo diving. if that can be established in a civil court, I would guess that it would be not hard to prove negligence of an instructor issuing a solo cert.
The closest situation I can think of with a similar problems is NITROX, but nitrox was standaralized in Tech, Commercial, and Navy diving so I'm not sure if the same reasoning would apply because there is no other situation where solo diving is sanctioned.
I would hope that the said instructor would be judged by SDI solo standards alone, but wonder if the jury would accept that a reasonable and prudent instructor would teach solo diving and issue a cert card that grants entry to a potencialy hazardous and unnecessary situation, when most agencies will not accept it.
PS. I dont think that solo diving is unnecessary, just trying to look through eyes of the general public as potential jury.
I appriciate all the comments, and if I seem single minded its because I want to test the worst case scenario.
The closest situation I can think of with a similar problems is NITROX, but nitrox was standaralized in Tech, Commercial, and Navy diving so I'm not sure if the same reasoning would apply because there is no other situation where solo diving is sanctioned.
I would hope that the said instructor would be judged by SDI solo standards alone, but wonder if the jury would accept that a reasonable and prudent instructor would teach solo diving and issue a cert card that grants entry to a potencialy hazardous and unnecessary situation, when most agencies will not accept it.
PS. I dont think that solo diving is unnecessary, just trying to look through eyes of the general public as potential jury.
I appriciate all the comments, and if I seem single minded its because I want to test the worst case scenario.
AADiveRex
Contributor
Most of these technical courses first became available outside the realm of the majority of the agencies. PADI for sure, the largest of them all, always lets others prove the concept first, while claiming the activity beyond the realm of recreational activity. It had been this way up until the last few years. Now, with tec-rec, they are hopping on the bandwagon, so to speak.PRL:
What bothers me more about the SDI standard is not so much that it is unique, it the way it is positioned. SDI is the recreational training arm of TDI, which focuses on technical training. In my opinion, this implies that solo diving can and should be practiced as a recreational diving activity. In my opinion, solo diving, even in otherwise recreational environments, is by its nature a technical activity.
While I have taught the priciples of solo diving for many years now, I do such aimed at making people self sufficient, and I never encourage others to actually dive solo. Rather, I train them to develop the independance, self reliance, and self confidence to handle any situation themselves, and even more importantly, to develop those skill aimed at avoiding such situations. I beleieve this makes them better buddies, as well as better divers. This may seem ironic coming from and outspoken solo diver, but I just don't see the benefit of practicing solo diving for its sake alone.
Dive Safe
Adam
Negligence would be based on an SDI Solo Diver Instructor and the Solo Diver Course. Anyone else's position should not be brought to bear in a lawsuit. The P may try to bring those other organizations into play, but they would not have any bearing on what the instructor did. The instructor can only be held to his/her own agency's regs and procedures.
I'd add, the USN has probably performed solo dives in the past. Think SpecOps insertions.
I'd add, the USN has probably performed solo dives in the past. Think SpecOps insertions.
Scuba
Contributor
You raise a legitimate concern, PRL. A few more points from a laymans perspective.
SCUBA is an unregulated industry. Most training agencies do not belong to the RSTC, even though the few that belong train most of the worlds divers, thanks to PADI. This means there is no universally accepted set of standards for all or most of the training agencies. Most are free to set their standards. While they agree on many points, they differ on others. I could be going out on a limb here, is there an organization that sets standards for most that I am not aware of? Easy question for someone to answer.
Another point is that many of the diving professionals who oppose teaching solo diving, turn right around and safely practice it. That has to create a credibility issue.
TDI is a large tech agency, I doubt if they didn't have legal counsil look into this matter. Not only did they decide to implement a solo course, but they did so with their recreational division, which also requires the use of computers for training. Of course, this does not mean they will win a legal challenge.
Leadership entails risk. A higher risk level, that is.
SCUBA is an unregulated industry. Most training agencies do not belong to the RSTC, even though the few that belong train most of the worlds divers, thanks to PADI. This means there is no universally accepted set of standards for all or most of the training agencies. Most are free to set their standards. While they agree on many points, they differ on others. I could be going out on a limb here, is there an organization that sets standards for most that I am not aware of? Easy question for someone to answer.
Another point is that many of the diving professionals who oppose teaching solo diving, turn right around and safely practice it. That has to create a credibility issue.
TDI is a large tech agency, I doubt if they didn't have legal counsil look into this matter. Not only did they decide to implement a solo course, but they did so with their recreational division, which also requires the use of computers for training. Of course, this does not mean they will win a legal challenge.
Leadership entails risk. A higher risk level, that is.
During the trial, the defense will bring out everything that is taught in the course. Thereby giving the jury all the information the diver recieved during his training. It will be almost like the jury took the course. ALMOST. With that being done, the jury can see that the diver knew what the risks were & chose to solo anyway. The plantiff would be hard pressed to win the case if the jury was all solo divers.
James
James
VeniVidi
Registered
I think you all brought up a very good question and arguments with this subject as it must bother every serious diver, sooner or later. Neither being a U.S. citizen nor a resident or lawyer, I cannot contribute anything to the details of your local laws, yet the problem remains the same, regardless of the country and its (democratic) jurisdictional system. Therefore, the topic is also interesting for international readers.
Now there are two aspects in the thread that have to be distinguished and discussed separately. The one being the legal implications, the second being solo diving as a "recognized" discipline.
Firstly, the standards set forth by the diving agencies such as PADI, SSI, CMAS (French standard, mainly proliferated in Europe) or others provide primarily guideline type of information for courts, in case of civil or criminal prosecutions. Each incident has to be considered individually, so general expert opinions are derived from these standard guidelines. Now the same goes for the "advanced" disciplines. Third parties (i.e. laymen) need to have an overview on what is considered normal or standard, once an incident would not comply with the "recreational standard protocols". Another consideration is of more general nature. And that is the freedom and self-reliance of each and every individual. I share "Scuba's" point by saying, that the diving industry is not regulated. And now comes the point: it should never be.
Solo diving is neither "technical" nor something otherwise of that sort, but something that is within the natural process of a diver's development. Some will do it in a very early stage of their "careers", others will never do it (the reasons are brought up in other threads of this section). Furthermore, solo diving is nothing that has to be standardized nor regulated for the very same reasons.
The more we rely on rules and principles others have imposed, the more we abandon our self-determination. The result is that eventually everybody has to go through a formal and costly process by "buying" certs and therefore the legitimization for diving other than "recreational standards". We all know that the real learning process starts after "the school" and is not necessarily bound to a piece of plastic. Thus, a lot can be achieved without formalities but with more training. So let's stop the over-regulation of anything that appears to come out as "new". This can be observed by the contents of these types of courses that do not contribute really new things but contain in-depth training increments of the aspects everybody actually knows from their OWD and AOWD courses, respectively. Just let's keep our common senses and practice with all diligence required. It is not only leadership that entails risk, we all taking the risk by going under water. Therefore let's keep the liabilities to where they belong: ourselves.
I do not blame the organizations offering these course programs as a lot of people either need or appreciate them as a good round-up in their diving knowledge and skills. However, let's not impede all the others wanting to explore diving simply through experience by over-regulating diving and solo diving in particular. My impression is the reason why courses sell so well is that they address directly to the fear of the people - maybe one reason more why solo diving is treated so controversial.
Now there are two aspects in the thread that have to be distinguished and discussed separately. The one being the legal implications, the second being solo diving as a "recognized" discipline.
Firstly, the standards set forth by the diving agencies such as PADI, SSI, CMAS (French standard, mainly proliferated in Europe) or others provide primarily guideline type of information for courts, in case of civil or criminal prosecutions. Each incident has to be considered individually, so general expert opinions are derived from these standard guidelines. Now the same goes for the "advanced" disciplines. Third parties (i.e. laymen) need to have an overview on what is considered normal or standard, once an incident would not comply with the "recreational standard protocols". Another consideration is of more general nature. And that is the freedom and self-reliance of each and every individual. I share "Scuba's" point by saying, that the diving industry is not regulated. And now comes the point: it should never be.
Solo diving is neither "technical" nor something otherwise of that sort, but something that is within the natural process of a diver's development. Some will do it in a very early stage of their "careers", others will never do it (the reasons are brought up in other threads of this section). Furthermore, solo diving is nothing that has to be standardized nor regulated for the very same reasons.
The more we rely on rules and principles others have imposed, the more we abandon our self-determination. The result is that eventually everybody has to go through a formal and costly process by "buying" certs and therefore the legitimization for diving other than "recreational standards". We all know that the real learning process starts after "the school" and is not necessarily bound to a piece of plastic. Thus, a lot can be achieved without formalities but with more training. So let's stop the over-regulation of anything that appears to come out as "new". This can be observed by the contents of these types of courses that do not contribute really new things but contain in-depth training increments of the aspects everybody actually knows from their OWD and AOWD courses, respectively. Just let's keep our common senses and practice with all diligence required. It is not only leadership that entails risk, we all taking the risk by going under water. Therefore let's keep the liabilities to where they belong: ourselves.
I do not blame the organizations offering these course programs as a lot of people either need or appreciate them as a good round-up in their diving knowledge and skills. However, let's not impede all the others wanting to explore diving simply through experience by over-regulating diving and solo diving in particular. My impression is the reason why courses sell so well is that they address directly to the fear of the people - maybe one reason more why solo diving is treated so controversial.
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