Negative entry vs Using a downline

[rivers]

Excellent write up rivers. You've really hit the nail on the head.


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Like i said, it's not mine. I stole it from Gareth Burrows' website divedir.com. he is a GUE instructor in the UK

 

[Mike.D]

Well thank you for sharing that anyway!!


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[rivers]

No probs.

 

[danvolker]

You mean that he guessed wildly and made stuff up as it came to him, in order to appear important and look like Super-Diverman!.

The idea that he's "developing" tables in his head is silly and preposterous. He did no such thing. Tables require complex calculation and more importantly, testing before they can be consided safe for use. All he did was make wild-ass guesses to support a dive profile he wanted to do.

TC, you are the one making stuff up here.... When George used to do his table recitals, it was from the Navy Tables for Mixed Gas--that was what he started us with when he discovered how much safer and better Trimix was than deep air on our deep wrecks like the RB Johnson/coryn chris at 280. .........But this was just math...it was not anything he himself developed....BUT, then in the late 90's, when we were trying to optimize everything for deeper and longer penetrations, and with all the work on the Rebreather he was doing with my friend Jack Kellon---we began seeing a need for individualizing the tables , VO2 Max became a key component in how to individualize or what to use to key each individual, and with the help of Dr Bill Hamilton ( the guy most divers know created the dive tables what you use was based on), and with the help of Bill Mee ( a biomedical genius ) , George had custom tables developed for himself--which would later be keyed to others based on how their VO2 max related to his. George perfected these tables in every single deco dive he did, pushing the ascent profile to shorten each stop as much as possible--if he began feeling a discomfort coming on, he would go back to the stop previous, and re-adjust..ultimately, he perfected the tables for him. He would have me use the same tables he did, as I was a competitive cyclist at the time, with a VO2 max even higher than his, and on dives on the RB that other tech divers would spend an hour and a half, doing deco, we would do more like 40 minutes. With this set of tables, when George and JJ did the world record 3 mile penetration in to Wakulla, George did a 12 hour deco after 6 hours at 285 feet deep...JJ did 18 hours. Navy Spec Warfare began showing up at the big push dives, to see how George could manage such short deco's without injury--as this had military implications. To this day, if Bill and I want to do a tech dive, I am using the tables George had cut, and doing the shorter deco....it works well for me, and I feel great afterwards....and I don't need to carry the much larger volume of fast the standard tables would cause me to require with much longer ascent and deco periods.
So...you do "get".... how this is an area where you just made stuff up about George, and it relates to stuff he did that was pretty important in the scheme of tech and cave diving.

No, it looks more like that was the work of the quieter, more respectful people around him, who tolerated him because they needed him for access to the cave, and spent more time apologizing for the people he infuriated. Seriously, have you read what he wrote to "get his message out"? And how is spewing vitrol at a dead person considered "getting his message out"? He got his instructor credentials yanked for that. How can you get your message out when you lose the tools that give you credibility and authority?

That isn't getting a message out, that's berating people just because he is in a position to do so, because he has a little control. It's called abuse of power and position.

He is not a kind person, nor is he someone that was going to pass up the opportunity to berate more people to promote his ideas. The idea that he wouldn't attack a rec. diver is beyond believeable for anyone who's read his own words.

The spewing at a dead person, would have been trying to ensure that his 100 man team, and his friends in tech and cave, did not see the death as just an "accident", but rather, the obvious result of an error that none of them could allow themselves to make. This would include a rule number one violation, like any diving with someone like Jim Bowden, who George considered to be the most responsible "Stroke" in the death of Sheck Exley.....or the foolishness of diving deep air, especially knowing that there was a much safer way( this makes it all the more foolish).....The media and the peer group responsible would typically paint the tragic death as an accident, with no cause---and this would injure the intelligence on how to prevent dive accidents in tech or cave.....you have to identify the most likely things that caused a death, and lying about the cause, is likely to cause more deaths.


If either George or I were to die in a deep air dive to 400 feet next month--I can guarantee you that we would want the community to say that we had been dumb A**ses for doing something so stupid, for breaking such a key rule. Neither of us would mind anyone spewing invectives about the event.

 

[PfcAJ]

No, it's because that is what has been dicated to use. Some of it fails the common sense test; for example, a continous loop harness. Single point of failure, have a cut in the harness, and the whole thing is useless. A strap system would be better. Second, why the black on all gear? Wouldn't the ability to be seen in low viz, or on the surface dicate that a high viz color be used? Yet, the inner SEAL in this movement dictates dark colors.

As has been stated, many DIR people have moved on to other systems, as they've found this isn't the end-all, be-all system that it's preached to be.

As for configuration; So what if one person's way is not consistant with everyone else? A left-handed diver needs gear on the other side. Yet this simple, common sense practice seems to violate the tenet of standardization that DIR preaches.

DIR gear is good for one approach; Tech diving; specifically caving. Beyond that, especially in rec. diving, it has no strong advantages.



They're no worse than any other fin. The technique used is the key. I see more bottom stirring from paddle fins than splits due to the greater downward thrust.


Because it adequately describes how DIR follows the rule laid down by others, some who've moved on from DIR, like they're gospel handed down from God...without the critical thought as to why the system is used this way.

And I'll own to a little wanting to dig at the DIR disciples. For a group convinced of their own superiority, they easily get defensive about criticism of their supposedly superior system.


What is that?

Are those DIR, PfcAJ?
So what is dan, then, DIR or a stroke? Seems you're one or the other to this club.

Obviously confused.

It takes some real effort to cut the webbing, and even if it is, it's not like it unravels like a wool sweater in a cartoon. I don't think you really get how the harness is set up, and nothing need be black. That's a thing you've made up.

Show me an example of your left handed gear and I'll be more than happy to explain why we choose to put things where we do. I'm still giving you the benefit of the doubt here.

About the fins, if they're non split fins, theyre
ok. Dans free diving fins aren't what I use, but I don't do the type of diving he does. And no choice of fins makes someone a stroke. That's false dichotomy fantasy land stuff. There's nothing unsafe about some split fins. Nice try. Also just being non dir doesn't make someone a ”stroke"。I though we went over that? Grow up dude. For someone who likes to tell everyone how military they are, you sure are being a little baby over who other people choose to dive.

 

[LiteHedded]

So what is the GUE/DIR protocol on descending to a wreck?
BTW, any GUE course on wreck diving?

tech 1 and 2 are, for all intensive porpoises, non-penetration wreck diving courses.

 

[danvolker]

Just to put a further point on this.....Exploration divers in deep cave, or deep ocean, will often see that the mission requires scooters...this you should know was a standard part of the kit for WKPP divers....scooters were essential in covering the distances the explorations required....and you would often be towing a spare scooter, in case your main one takes a d*mp.

Scooters have right handed triggers, and there is a huge pool of scooters, just like spare tanks, as this is key life support. If you are scootering with your right hand on the trigger, this has a real effect on what you will do with your left hand, and on where you want to rig things. It is not all as simple as it may seem. The light has to be on top of your left hand, so you can see where you are going with your right hand on the trigger....so there is a specific way to configure the light. In dealing with clipped stage bottles, and controlling the scooter, there is a better side for stages, and a worse side.
Really, you don't need to take any ones word for any of this....Ideally, we can have a GUE instructor explain and show the reasons even you as a lefty, would want to configure as DIR suggests.....this was the thinking in all the DIR demos we used to do....that when you actually show people--they get to try it, and see all the issues for themselves, all of a sudden there does not seem to be so much of a problem with the DIR ideas You get to see a problem--you see how your way fixes this problem, and you see the DIR way... You end up doing exactly what you like, but after most people see their way and the DIR way, with the explanation, they adopt a lot of the DIR.....and the original idea was to introduce divers to DIR, and they would take what they wanted to take. That was the impetus for spreading this DIR story to the world on the net....particularly stuff like the long hose primary and the why's.

Of course, if you decided you wanted to dive in Wakulla and become a WKPP member, then you would need to be totally DIR...But no one is forcing you to join the WKPP

 

[dbulmer]

tech 1 and 2 are, for all intensive porpoises, non-penetration wreck diving courses.

What about dolphins?

 

[nimoh]

What about dolphins?

for all intents and purposes, dolphins are not as intensive

 

[chillyinCanada]

Im confused. Why would someone have to take a wreck diving course if they aren't going to be doing any penetration?