Negative entry vs Using a downline

[PfcAJ]

I don't think you really understand DIR.

Either that, or you're just being obtuse.

 

[T.C.]

I don't think you really understand DIR.

Either that, or you're just being obtuse.

Or did I hit too close to home?

What was incorrect? What does DIR mean to you? As I said at the start, DIR means whatever the person wants it to mean. The DIR practitioners who perished would have said they were DIR, yet you insist they were not. So it clearly means different things to different people.
The only prerequisite seems to be the ability to arrogantly describe oneself as a diver who “Does It Right”.

 

[PfcAJ]

What was incorrect?

Your idea that cave diving involves 'luck'.
Your idea that its some sort of club.
Your idea that if someone doesn't follow the procedure then the procedure is invalid.
Your idea that if someone doesn't follow the procedures that I should continue to say they did follow the procedure.
Your idea that if someone drowns not following the procedure, that we should 'count them' (like we're keeping score?) as having followed the procedure.
Your idea that anyone gives a damn how you dive.
Your idea that you have any idea at ALL about the 'DIR Community' and what it collectively thinks.
Your idea that the long hose will strangle someone (I led'd at that)

Those things are what you're mistaken about. But you've already made up your mind that you've got it all figured out.

 

[danvolker]

I didnt say that you were saying that aloud. Just thinking it. Tell me you weren't thinking this, that when you see a jacked up rec. diver you don't think this about them; I can use a good laugh.

I can say that I honestly have NEVER felt this about a rec.diver ....We would be out on a boat, and if they are enjoying themself, how can I possibly be better at enjoying myself in a manner that could give me a feeling of superiority ? It is just not in the experience.

I didn't. I said your club founder clearly thought this way, and it permeates the DIR community. Again, tell me it doesn't permeate the DIR community. I can use a good laugh.

I really wish you could meet someone like George, before becoming so certain you knew exactly what he was thinking...and as far as I can tell, you have never even had an internet based dialog with him....so all you can go by is third or forth hand accounts, and stories from a time with entirely different forces in play, than exist today....Seriously, you have to admit, that if you really wanted to be an expert on this topic, it would help to have met the guy yourself, and to understand the context of the messages at the time.....and understanding the context, would be far easier for anyone if they were part of the cave diving community, and aware of all the issues here that are far removed from recreational diving.

Where in my recreation as a diver am I given the Right to preach at someone how to configure their gear? Yet, that is what dan is advocating; as if the DIR gear style is somehow superior for recreational diving.

Well, here I may give you the opportunity to hate me again, but I do believe that when I am on Scuba board, and when I used to be on rec.scuba, I had, and I have,...... the RIGHT, to share my beliefs about what I consider to be a safer and better way for recreational divers to share air in an OOA emergency, a better and safer way than the short hose primary and octopus traditional method....

On the other hand, at no time ever, have I been on Charterboats, pushing my DIR or Halcyon or even my long hose primary ideas to the guests on the boat.....
I take this to a level that would actually piss off Halcyon or GUE, in that if I am on a charter boat in Palm Beach, the ONLY thing I am going to try to push is the best possible fun and experiences for divers on the Palm Beach boats. In other words, there is no equipment issue favoring DIR or Halcyon that I care to interject into their lives...in any interaction I have with guests on a Palm Beach boat, my primary behavior and the responsibilities I feel, are about making sure these divers on Palm Beach boats, get the best drops, the best sites, have the most fun on the boats with friends and crew, and I would NEVER push gear choices on tourists...This means if I see anything the crew or Captain can do to make a trip better, I am going to suggest it...and they will listen, because I am part of the PB Dive Assoc. and I know all the member boats and captains....

My mission is to help the captains and crews, and to be absolutely dismissive of DIR or Halcyon with the dive tourists I share time and conversation with on a charterboat.....

This is not to say I speak badly about DIR or Halcyon-- I don't, and obviously I like both--what it means is that I just don't bring up either, and am more likely to avoid these topics altogether, because they are too much like arguing religion, and I am trying to assist with the Dive Tourism experience in Palm Beach...I am not trying to start religious wars!!!...DIR won't help with this charter boat experience...either will Halcyon or GUE, so they are 100% out of the picture for my conversations with guests on a dive boat.....

Does this clear up the DEFECTIVE DIR Attitude you keep accusing me of TC?

Now again, on SB or back in the days of rec.scuba -- I saw this like a coffee shop where these DIR ideas WERE what the other divers at the coffee shop were in the mood to chat about....because in these places, it was about all the ideas any of us had, to make diving more fun, to create bigger and better adventures, and to help keep these adventures as safe as possible....But this was and is a ROLE for me, that is NOTHING LIKE my ROLE when I am on a dive boat.....

For that matter, if I am with Sandra and a bunch of her macro photographer friends, I don't dare make any DIR peeps, because these are good divers that will not like the DIR ideas, as they conflict with what they want to do....and so I keep my thoughts on what is optimal to myself--though for these guys, it is really not even something I would think about, as they have been doing this well for a very long time, and they don't need any DIR help--and there is no reason for me to even reflect on how a DIR idea could be of benefit to any of them.

 

[T.C.]

Well, you're clearly angry and unable to listen to what is being said.

Your idea that cave diving involves 'luck'.

I did not say cave diving involves Luck. I said that due to the inherent risk, not having a fatality in a set period of time is luck. Because of the risk, there will eventually be a casualty. As far as I know, there were no diving deaths today. Was that due to the skills, gear and procedure of every diver? Or due to us being lucky that the risk factors did not result in a casualty today.

Your idea that its some sort of club.

DIR is indeed a "club". You have your own little cliques, your own verbiage, and you associate together. You all follow a central doctrine of how to "Do It Right". You have your own forums, your own little permission group. Sounds like a club to me...

Your idea that if someone doesn't follow the procedure then the procedure is invalid.

That is completely, utterly false. I have never stated this.

Your idea that if someone doesn't follow the procedures that I should continue to say they did follow the procedure.

Apparently we've devolved into straight making things up. You know I didn't say this.

Your idea that if someone drowns not following the procedure, that we should 'count them' (like we're keeping score?) as having followed the procedure.

Yep, more untruths. What I said was once they are a DIR diver, and intend to follow the procedure, you can't just kick them out of your club for a mistake, so you can keep your perfect record.

Your idea that anyone gives a damn how you dive.

Never said this.

Your idea that you have any idea at ALL about the 'DIR Community' and what it collectively thinks.

Well, given my interaction with them, and with you, I think I certainly am right about the arrogant, better than thou attitude.

Your idea that the long hose will strangle someone (I led'd at that)

We already cleared that up.

But you've already made up your mind that you've got it all figured out.

Nope. I don't understand why anyone would subject themselves to having others dictate the gear they can use, and where to mount it. That truly baffles me.

But you don't want to listen to anything I've said; you just what to bluster about how DIR is perfect, and no one has ever died following it. Clearly you're not interested in discussing it; you just want to arrogantly insist that you're the best. Well, have at it.

As I said, DIR means whatever the person wants it to mean. The only prerequisite seems to be the ability to arrogantly describe oneself as a diver who “Does It Right”. You're provided yet another good example of the DIR mentality.

I can say that I honestly have NEVER felt this about a rec.diver ....We would be out on a boat, and if they are enjoying themself, how can I possibly be better at enjoying myself in a manner that could give me a feeling of superiority ? It is just not in the experience.

Hee Hee...Sorry, couldn't resist. I'm sure it's gone through your mind when you see a jacked up diver. I'll be honest, I have my own thoughts when I see someone whose skills are lacking.

But unless they are my buddy, assigned or chosen, I don't say anything. It's not my place.

I can say that I honestly have NEVER felt this about a rec.diver ....We would be out on a boat, and if they are enjoying themself, how can I possibly be better at enjoying myself in a manner that could give me a feeling of superiority ? It is just not in the experience.

Hee Hee...Sorry, couldn't resist. I'm sure it's gone through your mind when you see a jacked up diver.

I really wish you could meet someone like George, before becoming so certain you knew exactly what he was thinking...and as far as I can tell, you have never even had an internet based dialog with him.

Given his behavior, I don't think I'd want to talk to him online. He has the mouth of a Sailor, and the attitude that he's God's Gift to Diving.

Well, here I may give you the opportunity to hate me again, but I do believe that when I am on Scuba board, and when I used to be on rec.scuba, I had, and I have,...... the RIGHT, to share my beliefs about what I consider to be a safer and better way for recreational divers to share air in an OOA emergency, a better and safer way than the short hose primary and octopus traditional method....

Actually, I think of this as not ideal in OW rec. diving. I completely understand the need for cave diving, in order to swim in file while sharing air, but if I have to donate air in rec. diving, potentially to that jacked up diver who would die otherwise, I want to be able to grab the person, thread my arm through their BCD, and control them until we break the surface. I don't want them 7 feet away, potentially out of sight, and likely engaged in some stupidity where I can't threaten to punch them.

---------- Post added April 6th, 2014 at 05:08 PM ----------

Well, here I may give you the opportunity to hate me again

I'm not going to truly hate anyone. I may joke about it; but I can't hate a person.

I've seen hate, and what it can do.

 

[boulderjohn]

If you read dive fatality reports--and I not only read them, I write some, too--you will find that there are pretty much two things that are happening. The most common is a pretty much unavoidable medical incident, such as sudden cardiac arrest, and the second is doing something that violates what you were taught when certified. When you read the fatality reports of recreational divers, you sometimes have to shake your head about what happened--the old Darwin cliché seems to be at work. (I will later talk about one specific exception I read about, though.) Technical divers, including cave divers, die when they violate the more advanced training they received. Pretty much nobody ever dies when following their training protocols perfectly, and it does not matter whether their training was DIR or with any other formally recognized training.

There is nothing wrong with the DIR system. It is very effective. I was fully immersed in it for the first few years of my training. I then decided that I disagreed with a couple of points in it, so I have drifted away a bit. The man credited with being the one who was most influential in developing the DIR equipment system was Bill Hogarth Main, and Bill has drifted away himself. Because a key idea of DIR is standardization, neither he nor I will be considered DIR now.

So how different are we? When I crossed over to a non-DIR instructor to complete my trimix training, and when I did my cave training with a non-DIR instructor, I did all the training nearly 100% the way I had been trained before (DIR), and neither instructor cared. In fact, you would really have had to know what you were looking for to spot the differences in our gear setup and our diving practices. During the boat dives for my trimix certification, we shared the boat with other advanced technical divers, and the conversations we had told me that very few of them had even heard of the term DIR. Yet, once again, you would really have to know what you were looking for to spot the differences. That is because the concepts and procedures used throughout technical diving are pretty much the same regardless of agency.

I said I would talk about an exception to nobody having a fatality without violating training. Here is an exception. The diver ran out of air, which is a problem, but there are procedures you are taught from your first pool sessions that should serve you well in such a situation. She followed procedures perfectly. She had stayed near her buddy, and she went to him for his alternate. Unfortunately, as happens so very often in the traditional setup, the alternate was not where it was supposed to be. Because they are designed to disengage from their keepers easily, they often come out on their own. You often do not realize it when it happens. His alternate had come out, and it had gotten behind him. In the frantic search for it, she inhaled water, gagged, and drowned. When I read that, I realized that there would not have been a problem if her buddy had been using the long hose/bungeed alternate system. I have therefore come to believe that all divers should configure their gear that way. Maybe it is only marginally safer, but I know of one instance when that margin made all the difference.

Although the long hose/bungeed alternate is how DIR divers configure their gear, that is how ALL technical divers configure their gear, even the ones who have never heard the term DIR. Just because someone is dressed a certain way does not make that person a DIR diver. DIR did not invent it, and they are not the only ones who use it.

---------- Post added April 6th, 2014 at 05:24 PM ----------

Actually, I think of this as not ideal in OW rec. diving. I completely understand the need for cave diving, in order to swim in file while sharing air, but if I have to donate air in rec. diving, potentially to that jacked up diver who would die otherwise, I want to be able to grab the person, thread my arm through their BCD, and control them until we break the surface. I don't want them 7 feet away, potentially out of sight, and likely engaged in some stupidity where I can't threaten to punch them.

My trimix instructor would agree with you. He wanted me latching on to the guy like that, too. We just did it using a 7 foot hose. Just because the hose is 7 feet long does not mean the guy has to be 7 feet away from you.

 

[PfcAJ]

TC, once again you seem to be confused. I don't dive DIR because it was 'dictated', I dive it because makes sense to me. Its a choice.

 

[chillyinCanada]

Having read threcent posts in ghis thread I've learned for one thing, that it is not off topic for me to continue to beat my turtle drum with Dan. So on that note, Dan, the way you DESCRIBE diving with turtles is perfectly acceptable to me and most of my encounters have gone similarly. I'm specifically addressing the video you posted earlier of your Sunday advanced fun dives with DIRs carrying cameras. The turtle was clearly distrssed and trying to take its leave, yet everywhere it turned looking for escape a "DIR" diver blocked its way. Eventually, your team was almost completely surrounding it as it turned and turned sgain looking for an exit. Why it didn't go for the surface I don't know. Perhaps you will respond that it was because the turtle wanted to stay and play with you.

Second, that as happens with so many of us, while we think our memory serves, it's not always that reliable and Dan you are as or more guilty of revisionistic explanations as any of us.

---------- Post added April 6th, 2014 at 05:32 PM ----------

Third, my memory says thst DIR proponents were adamantly against side slung tanks and those cave divers who dove that way were strokes. What is the DIR way today?

---------- Post added April 6th, 2014 at 05:35 PM ----------

Fourth, well heck, now I have to go and read the whole darn thing again to remember fourth. meh, maybe won't bother. It'll come up again.

Oh wait!! Just remembered. Fourth, have been diving with Dan, he is indeed fun and cheerful on the dive boat, enthusiastic under the water and entertaining at lunch.

 

[danvolker]

"Like I said, I could care less how many mutants don't like me. The project is too important to let farm animals get in my way. I will slaughter all of them. Untermeschens like these deserve the treatment they get."
Matthias Pohl notes, "This is a mighty sick fellow who wrote that. The terminology 'untermenschens' dates back to the Nazi regime in Germany and was used by the campaign to justify the slaughter of six million people in concentration camps. This obviously has not escaped the author as he just threatens the same the very same to his opponents. I am curious as to whether the statements reflect general WKKP policy or the notion of its leading deranged member."

Anyone who will refer to others by a term taken directly from Nazi propaganda is not a nice person, dan.

Wow...this is so out of context, I almost can't believe you are trying to say George was in any way like a Nazi...
If you look up your word-- untermenschens' you quickly see an explanation of the word like this: ...it is possible that Stoddard constructed his "under man" as an opposite to Friedrich Nietzsche's Übermensch (superman) concept. Stoddard doesn't say so explicitly, but he refers critically to the "superman" idea at the end of his book (p. 262).^[8] Wordplays with Nietzsche's term seem to have been used repeatedly as early as the 19th century and, due to the German linguistic trait of being able to combine prefixes and roots almost at will in order to create new words, this development was even somewhat logical. For instance, German author Theodor Fontane contrasts the Übermensch/Untermensch word pair in chapter 33 of his novel [FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Der Stechlin[/FONT]^[11][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]As a matter of fact, even Nietzsche himself used "Untermensch" at least once in contrast to "[/FONT]Übermensch[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]" in [/FONT]Die fröhliche Wissenschaft[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif] (1882), however he did so in reference to semi-human creatures in[/FONT]mythology[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif], naming them alongside [/FONT]dwarves[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif], [/FONT]fairies[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif], [/FONT]centaurs[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif] and so on.[/FONT]^[12][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif] Earlier examples of "Untermensch" include Romanticist [/FONT]Jean Paul[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif] using the term in his novel [/FONT][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Hesperus (1795) in reference to an [/FONT]Orangutan[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif](Chapter "8. Hundposttag").[/FONT]<sup>[13]



[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]So...rather than assign elements of "Nazi German evil" , to a person with goals and missions you have probably never looked into--and may never understand if you don't get into cave diving....consider this....
George was trying hard to avoid the rampant deaths that was plaguing North Florida's Cave community, and as Director, he was VERY RESPONSIBLE for the LIVES of over 100 WKPP members, and for their families.
Additionally, it was George's job to do his best to maintain the access to the big caves they felt were so important for the science of hydro geology, and to the adventure of Cave diving....what they accomplished, was great for both.....
Deaths and cave closings, would have been catastrophic to the growth of the science of hydrogeology they were gaining ground breaking data in...and of course would have been bad for cave diving.
You must know that in the 90's, there was a lot of talk about the Farm Animal Stupid in the Cave diving death accidents....much of this was an issue where George, or, the Cave training agencies, had to deal with someone that just died in a cave, and had no training in cave diving, and many made such amazing mistakes that it would be hard to imagine them surviving in a swimming pool for long by themselves.....there was this huge rural and poorly educated area, WITH lots of caves....lots of access for anyone that could get their hands on a tank, and that thought there was nothing to diving they needed to learn about. George referred to these north Floridians, as Farm Animal Stupid...and if you went through a list of what this was in reference to, even if you did not call these people Farm Animal Stupid...you would use something way stronger than foolish.
The idea that they were a lower class of diver, or a stupider class of human, was clearly part "gallows humor", and part "sad acceptance" that there were people[/FONT][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif] "you can't trust with the keys to the car."
[/FONT][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]
George was no Nazi, and I should not even be forced to comment on such a charge!!!

[/FONT]</sup>

---------- Post added April 6th, 2014 at 08:17 PM ----------

Having read threcent posts in this thread I've learned for one thing, that it is not off topic for me to continue to beat my turtle drum with Dan. So on that note, Dan, the way you DESCRIBE diving with turtles is perfectly acceptable to me and most of my encounters have gone similarly. I'm specifically addressing the video you posted earlier of your Sunday advanced fun dives with DIRs carrying cameras. The turtle was clearly distrssed and trying to take its leave, yet everywhere it turned looking for escape a "DIR" diver blocked its way. Eventually, your team was almost completely surrounding it as it turned and turned sgain looking for an exit. Why it didn't go for the surface I don't know. Perhaps you will respond that it was because the turtle wanted to stay and play with you.

I don't get top marks as an environmentalist, when I am trying to shoot video. This turtle may have disliked the DIRs/GUES even more than TC does !!! And with better reasons
But I am sure this turtle was fine afterwards, and within 5 minutes of leaving us, it would have been biologically impossible to tell that it had interacted with us---If you have a Turtle Psychologist handy, maybe there is a discussion of deep trauma and conditioning, but I doubt any of the turtle people would consider us nearly the threat of the fisherman, the netters, or the people that drop plastic bags in the water, or balloons....Moreover, since when has anyone ever said anything good about photographers

---------- Post added April 6th, 2014 at 05:32 PM ----------

Third, my memory says thst DIR proponents were adamantly against side slung tanks and those cave divers who dove that way were strokes. What is the DIR way today?

I do remember George and Bill talking about their use of Sidemount back in the mid-nineties....there were some tight cave restrictions where they would use side mount, as a special solution to an abnormal issue in their cave diving.
They made it work, applied their DIR methods to it as well as possible, and used it when needed. But for the larger power caves, there was never any benefit that they saw, only more problems that did not exist with back mount.
Mostly is was not much of an issue or topic. Just not important.


---------- Post added April 6th, 2014 at 05:35 PM ----------

Fourth, well heck, now I have to go and read the whole darn thing again to remember fourth. meh, maybe won't bother. It'll come up again.

Oh wait!! Just remembered. Fourth, have been diving with Dan, he is indeed fun and cheerful on the dive boat, enthusiastic under the water and entertaining at lunch.

And I look forward to diving with you again

 

[T.C.]

TC, once again you seem to be confused. I don't dive DIR because it was 'dictated', I dive it because makes sense to me. Its a choice.

Once again, you completely misread what I said. Perhaps you should calm down and read with an open mind before you reply?

I said your gear choice and placement is dictated by DIR.

If you placed something different from the rest of the team, would that be considered DIR?

If your gear was different, If you had a bungeed wing, Dual wing, a AIR2, split fin or heaven forbid it wasn't dark colored, would you still be DIR?

I don't get top marks as an environmentalist, when I am trying to shoot video. This turtle may have disliked the DIRs/GUES even more than TC does !!! And with better reasons But I am sure this turtle was fine afterwards,

Oh, it was fine. I'm sure that's a good enough excuse to harrass and torment the wildlife, you know, the things we try to convince the new divers not to do?

George was trying hard to avoid the rampant deaths that was plaguing North Florida's Cave community, and as Director, he was VERY RESPONSIBLE for the LIVES of over 100 WKPP members, and for their families.

No, the diver is responsible for their own life. He is not.

The other divers are all well-trained adults. Who appointed him respnsible for other adults? Did they agree to him being responsible for them?

You must know that in the 90's, there was a lot of talk about the Farm Animal Stupid in the Cave diving death accidents…

So why choose a word with extremely strong Nazi connections? I am not accusing him of Nazism, but the fact he chose this word instead of countless others, or even the English translation, is telling of the sheer hatred toward anyone who didn’t fall into line and conform to his new cult of diving.

Hell, Why even insult people at all? Does it get the point across better? Does it make the other person listen better?

Or does it just cause them to dig in their heels and fight all the more stubbornly? But he wasn’t interested in convincing anyone, was he? He was just interested in screaming his head off at anyone who became a target…ie, the strokes.

And somehow this attitude was not carried over to all the recreational divers, though? He was angry with just one small subset of diver?

So where did the arrogance and holier than thou attitude of DIR divers toward other divers come from if not the clear example from the ayatollahs of DIR?