Negative entry vs Using a downline

[T.C.]

TC, if you or I decided to Fly a plane, there is a certain amount of Luck involved in our not getting bad fuel, or of having a catastrophic mechanical failure on take-off.... DIR for this, is trying to have prevented as many failures as possible with pre-flight maintenance and a good checklist.....and training for failures. DIR is just a name for trying to avoid known problems.

What about PILOT ERRROR, the leading cause of airplane crashes. Experienced, well-trained pilots will crash due to bad judgement, bad reactions, and sheer negligence. The same thing happens to divers. That it didn't happen in this timeframe is called one thing.

LUCK.

You have not met George, or Bill, or me. You don't know how we are in person, although if you watched the DIR 3 video, you might at least have some information on how we think and talk about DIR issues and recreational divers.

Yeah, but I've read his words. Did you read that last link I posted? Good Lord; I don't know anyone who curses that much. And I know some colorful people. What about him publically attacking a dead person for not adhereing to his diving religion? Certainly he is nice to you; you're his friend. But I think his personality toward other divers is closer to what I've posted.

Apparently there was a DIRish diver(s) somewhere, that really pissed you or your friends off. Hopefully, this was not on purpose and not in-person, and was the result of the Internet being such a poor medium to convey nuances with in a conversation.

Just most of them. And the arrogance and holier than you attitude are purposeful. It's annoying, but I think the whole "my gear makes me safer" attitude is rather funny.

I took issue with that, and as all can see, I reacted too much.

I have a thick skin and enjoy the debate. The words of someone online will never affect how I feel or carry myself.

As to complacency in diving, you are dead right. Part of what we try to do with DIR though, is to have all the pre-flight type planning built into every dive plan, and there is always a plan.

Yet, after a while the planning slips and something that should have been caught isn't, because of the attitude of "we're better". It happens with pilots, and it happens alot in the miltary. You patrol the same area 10, 15, 20 times, and nothing ever happens. Guess what happens the 21, 27, or 51st time?

It happens in diving. I realize I do it, you do it, we all do. But part of the arrogance is that "better than you" attitude, and in my experience, these are the people that get complacent first. The attitude of DIR works against recognizing this complacentcy creep.

You TC, probably do somethings that could be considered DIR, even though you would be very upset with another diver that suggested such a terrible thing

I probably do. But it is not because I chose it because my diving religion demanded it. I place it where it works for me. Why does DIR dictate everyone have the same configuration and carry the same gear? I've had people tell me how to set up my battle gear, from a experienced CSM (Command Sergeant Major) to a new LT who wanted everyone to look the same. I am a left handed shooter, so stacking my (very) well-stocked 1st aid kit on my left doesn't work, nor does placing my magazines on the left. But that's where they wanted them. Guess where they were when I stepped outside the wire?

No one else fights in my gear, I do.
No one else dives your gear, you do. You should select and place gear where it works best for you, not where the team demands it.

What would you do ?

Stay away from them. It's not my place to tell another diver that they're wrong, unless they are my buddy, or they explicitly ask for my help.

---------- Post added April 6th, 2014 at 12:03 PM ----------

False. DIR DOES have a meaning, and its not about arrogance.

What is this meaning? That you are the only ones doing diving the correct (right) way? Sure sounds arrogant to me.

What cave divers have died following DIR principles?

You're stating that no DIR divers have ever died in a cave or otherwise? Do you really want me to disprove that, or do you want to accept that it's wrong?

Its not luck.

Due to the risk of cave diving, not having a death in a certain timeframe is indeed "luck".

Its having a good set of procedures that people can follow, and those procedures keep accidents from happening and provide solutions for if/when they do. When the procedures aren't followed, bad things can happen. The most robust procedure is worthless if not followed.

So when the procedure isn't followed, do they lose their DIR "card"? Is DIR something that one does one day, then if something bad happens, they are instantly excommunicated, and said to not be DIR?

Nothing happens. That's a baloney argument from someone who apparently doesn't understand the way the longhose is routed.

I've seen it. It wraps around the back of the head to the mouth from the right. A pull from the left, to the up and right on the 2nd stage will pull it across the neck. I saw someone do this as a joke before (on the surface). Has anyone thought what would happen if it happened underwater, with force?

I'm asking this as a serious question.

 

[danvolker]

How will having a longer hose solve a diver's OOA emergency??? Will it make them track their use better? Will it make them plan a dive better?

It won't change the bad planning of a new diver that runs OOA. What it will do if his new diver buddy has one, is represent an easier sharing scenario than with a short primary and an air 2, or typical short primary and an octopus that is either stuffed into a holder where it will take 5 seconds or more to extricate, or it is just in some unknown place the donating diver can't find when he needs it.

And how many of you have considered what would happen with that hose wrapped around your head if a panicked diver in an OOA scenario came up from your left side, above you, ripped the reg from your mouth and made for the surface? You can get that bungeed octo all you want, but it's hard to breath when you're being choked.

All we need to do is spin in this scenario, and it runs straight--or just use our hand to re-route the hose straight.....You are welcome to try any of these scenarios that concern you at the BHB on your upcoming trip at a 20 foot depth....I would be fine being the crash dummy.

Yes he did. You think I can't research? George Irvine III, 1995 article in DeepTech Magazine entitled "Do It Right, or don't do it!". If we're going to debate this, don't treat me like a fool.

Someone else here certainly has the cite, but the reporter is the one that coined the term...and after it was in print, George and the WKPP decided it was a name they liked for Cave diving and the WKPP...so they began using it. This is certainly NOT me trying to treat you like a fool....Hopefully one of the other members will point you at the right link for this...as I have to head out for a few hours now and can't look this up right now.

Reeaaallllyyyy.... So is this kind and gentle George related to the same George Irvine III who said: "Possibly the most important piece of wisdom in the diving world, and is something we should all apply to all of our diving. It is, simply, 'Don't dive with strokes.' The term 'stroke' refers to someone who, knowing there is a better system, chooses to dive in a less than optimal way. It applies to those instructors who encourage students (who know no better) to exercise personal preference to sell more equipment. It applies to those who don't plan their dives, dive beyond their abilities, dive deep on air, take unnecessary risks, do big dives using unfamiliar gear, or who's only reason for diving is depth.
Diving with strokes moves us into an area where our safety is no longer in our own hands. Strokes are sometimes highly 'qualified'. Often they seem very confident - usually because they have no concept of the danger they are getting themselves, and you, into. — George M Irvine III"

What about this post from George, recorded from back in the day: George M. Irvine III's First Post to techdiver
"Anyone who has not been privy to the latest blatent strokery
out of IANTD, and it's new mixed gas expert, Lamar Hires, email me
and I will fax you a copy. This is the single stupidest piece of
sheer
nonsense ever printed on one piece of paper, and is living proof of
why we train our own people, and have our own standards which we
adhere to with no exceptions. Maybe we can all get a copy of the
CDS mixed gas standards, or will we have to wait until Lamar gets
back from the Wizzard and does his first mixed gas dive? - George"

What about this: As the BBS Turns fix - From George Irvine III:
Warning: Language.


What about George getting throw out of TDI for his vitrolic and EXTREMELY public attacks on another diver who died?

I think you're lying about this kind and gentle George, dan.

Your "hero" is the one responsible for the arrogance of DIR divers today and the cult-like behavior. As one article said: DIR: When Scientology meet Scuba.

George would be in these discussions on the tech list, and on Cavers....this was not the domain of the recreational diver, and the posting style of most members of the tech list, or cavers list, was much more of a WWF Wrestling Persona than is used today on SB or anywhere else on the Internet. It was Zeitgeist. George was and is hated by many for the insults to tech instructors and tech and cave agencies---but only with revised histories could the recreational world believe that he ever said anything insulting to recreational divers....
The "Stroke" was a term created to describe the worst people in tech or Cave, and typically instructors or depth record attemptors.......and use of this term was hammered home by George after the death of his good friend Sheck Exley--who George believed was killed because of the bad peer influence of guys that he was calling Strokes..people that would personify strokes to him from then on.....

George did not use the term Stroke to refer to recreational divers.

 

[PfcAJ]

Do I really have to tell you what DIR means? Its just a standardized system of diving. Not really rocket science. Its also just a name. I don't make up the words we use, dude. Anyone is free to dive however they want. I'm sure you think the way you dive is best for you. DIR is best for me.

I am not aware of a person for followed all the DIR principles who died in a cave. Like I said before, I lost a friend who didn't follow the procedures. Typically, if a person doesn't follow a procedure, we just spot correct. No one 'loses' their card, but if they they continue to not follow the procedures, I simply don't dive with them. I don't have to dive with anyone I don't want to dive with.

I can see you're not a cave diver. Its not a luck thing. We (cave divers) tend to take it pretty seriously and follow some pretty strict rules.

If you're asking a serious question, in the water (easily 3 dimensional movement), the diver can turn around. Its the same as if a short hose reg gets pulled in the manner you describe. It 'can' choke someone as well, as it originates behind the neck.

 

[T.C.]

Someone else here certainly has the cite, but the reporter is the one that coined the term...and after it was in print, George and the WKPP decided it was a name they liked for Cave diving and the WKPP...so they began using it.

I've read the article cited. Since they started using it, they certainly are the ones responsible for it's implementation.

George would be in these discussions on the tech list, and on Cavers....George did not use the term Stroke to refer to recreational divers.

How one treats some people is how they will probably treat all others. Second, his attitude has carried over and permeated the rest of the DIR community, and he as the leader is responsible for this. Look at the hatred and vitrol expelled by people for things like the AIR2, split fins, jacket BCDs, dive knives, or valved masks; all of which are fine and safe for normal recreational diving.

He coined the term stroke, and it is used commonly to refer to non-DIR divers. Look at all the vitrol he has said, and tell me with a straight face that he acts this way to equals, but not to those seen as inferior divers.

Don't worry; I'd probably start giggling too.

Consider this quote from him:

"Like I said, I could care less how many mutants don't like me. The project is too important to let farm animals get in my way. I will slaughter all of them. Untermeschens like these deserve the treatment they get."
Matthias Pohl notes, "This is a mighty sick fellow who wrote that. The terminology 'untermenschens' dates back to the Nazi regime in Germany and was used by the campaign to justify the slaughter of six million people in concentration camps. This obviously has not escaped the author as he just threatens the same the very same to his opponents. I am curious as to whether the statements reflect general WKKP policy or the notion of its leading deranged member."

Anyone who will refer to others by a term taken directly from Nazi propaganda is not a nice person, dan.

 

[danvolker]

...the "What would You do?" qustion

Stay away from them. It's not my place to tell another diver that they're wrong, unless they are my buddy, or they explicitly ask for my help.

TC, this is a very specific instance, where YOU are on a diveboat, and YOU see a new diver about to step off onto the platform to dive, and YOU see a catastrophic failure almost certain to occur....again, I gave the examples like--the guy whose tank will slide out at any moment, meaning he will likely become suddenly OOA due to his config....or the guy with the console trailing...that could even catch on the dive platform ( I actually heard of a sloppy DM catching their console once on Frank's boat, he jumped in, the console snagged on the platform, and the boat was still moving at about 4 mph....which had the DM getting dragged through the water by the boat and console...not a good scenario, and my expectation is, if you "saw that coming", YOU would warn such a poorly configured diver....though the falling tank issue is the best example of one where you really MUST say something.

Now if your position is that such a likely accident is not your business....that is really a different discussion, one that gets closer to religion, and which probably won't work out well here on SB. But I don't think this is what you are saying....
I think you are just saying you don't want to be pushy or preachy with your views, on other divers on a boat....and in this we are in agreement--I don't want to be pushy or preachy either, and I never am on dive boats.....NEVER.



---------- Post added April 6th, 2014 at 02:35 PM ----------

I've read the article cited. Since they started using it, they certainly are the ones responsible for it's implementation.


How one treats some people is how they will probably treat all others. Second, his attitude has carried over and permeated the rest of the DIR community, and he as the leader is responsible for this. Look at the hatred and vitrol expelled by people for things like the AIR2, split fins, jacket BCDs, dive knives, or valved masks; all of which are fine and safe for normal recreational diving.

Role theory is a perspective in sociology and in social psychology that considers most of everyday activity to be the acting out of socially defined categories (e.g., mother, manager, teacher). Each social role is a set of rights, duties, expectations, norms and behaviours that a person has to face and fulfill. The model is based on the observation that people behave in a predictable way, and that an individual’s behavior is context specific, based on social position and other factors.
In other words, by widely accepted sociologic theory, George would act one way as a husband and father, another as the owner of a business to his employees ( a place he is very well loved today , by the way, at his business pipewelders ) ....You would expect a different role to his own diving buddies, and a different role to the people in the WKPP whose lives he was charged with protecting as the Director....and you would expect a different role and behavior when he went on the Entertainment Channel known as the Cavers or tech list, where everyone was there for the flame wars and posturing---that was part of the reason for being on those sites, for most of the users of them....but this was a dramatically different role than ALL the other roles and behaviors.

He coined the term stroke, and it is used commonly to refer to non-DIR divers. Look at all the vitrol he has said, and tell me with a straight face that he acts this way to equals, but not to those seen as inferior divers.

George left the diving world behind around 2004 or 5.....completely.
He is in boating now.
Common use today does not relate to his intent, when he used the word stroke in an attempt to steer divers he cared about, away from guys that would romantisize depth record setting, or "Every man for himself" diving. These areas had nothing to do with recreational.....

Maybe your real point, is that the DIR community should come together and clarify it's collective belief on some of these issues...the problem is, there is no real structure or leadership today in DIR....There is in GUE, but that is also a separate system, even though with "some" similarities.

 

[T.C.]

Do I really have to tell you what DIR means?
I know what the acronym means.

I am not aware of a person for followed all the DIR principles who died in a cave. Typically, if a person doesn't follow a procedure, we just spot correct. No one 'loses' their card, but if they they continue to not follow the procedures, I simply don't dive with them. I don't have to dive with anyone I don't want to dive with.

So when a DIR diver doesn't follow a procedure, suddenly they're not a DIR diver anymore? Do DIR divers say "I'm not DIR today", then tomorrow, say they are again? Sounds like an easy way to alter the statistics. Someone has an accident, and DIR divers can say, "Oh- don't count that against us, he wasn't following our rules, so he wasn't in the club at the time".

I can see you're not a cave diver. Its not a luck thing. We (cave divers) tend to take it pretty seriously and follow some
pretty strict rules.

From time to time, a diver perishes in a cave. It happens to all groups, and to those of all experiences even the best of them. To not have it happen in a set time frame is luck, as it can happen at any dive, to anyone.

As for following strict rules, so do pilots. They still crash from time to time. Rules and procedures cannot fully eliminate risk.

If you're asking a serious question, in the water (easily 3 dimensional movement), the diver can turn around. Its the same as if a short hose reg gets pulled in the manner you describe. It 'can' choke someone as well, as it originates behind the neck.

It doesn't wrap around the head in the same manner. I'm just saying that it sure looks like a easy way to choke, and I saw it used as a practical joke. It wasn't pulled hard, but the tightness of the hose sure prompts questions.

...the "What would You do?" qustion
TC, this is a very specific instance, where YOU are on a diveboat, and YOU see a new diver about to step off onto the platform to dive, and YOU see a catastrophic failure almost certain to occur....again, I gave the examples like--the guy whose tank will slide out at any moment, meaning he will likely become suddenly OOA due to his config....or the guy with the console trailing...

1. A loose tank will not render them OOA. The tank is still attached, by other connections like the inflator, and will result in embarrassment and time lost, but is unlikely to result in losing air supply.
2. I'm not the Scuba Police; it's not my place to tell a diver their BCD is too high (They probably like it there), or to fix their console.
3. Both of these can happen to a 'superior' DIR diver. Your tanks can come unstrapped, you can forget to clip off your gauge.
4. An immediate safety problem is different from "poorly configured", and can be addressed without commenting on their choice of gear.

There are no commonly used recreational gear set-ups that are unsafe. Calling them "pooly configured" and describing common gear as about to cause "catastrophic failure" is just more of the DIR Bull poop and arrogance against us "inferior" rec. divers who like our gear and don't want to conform to your dive religion.

He coined the term stroke, and it is used commonly to refer to non-DIR divers. Look at all the vitrol he has said, and tell me with a straight face that he acts this way to equals, but not to those seen as inferior divers....the problem is, there is no real structure or leadership today in DIR

The underlying behavior was that all other divers below him are inferior, and this attitude has infected the DIR community. After all, Rec divers are non-DIR divers. In his view, and your's, we're all just strokes. Tell me you or PfcAJ or any other DIR diver isn't reading this, and their first thought isn't "F----ing stroke...".

I've worked with "elite" units who have this attitude that they're the best....and TRULY elite units like the Special Forces. I worked for a year with an SF A-team. They don't go out and criticize other units who are not as well equipped or trained as they are. They work with them and appreciate their help, not insult them or make fun of them.

They know they're better. They don't need to go out and proudly beat their chest and proclaim their greatness to the world the way DIR divers do.

 

[maniago]

Good gravy - take this one off to the bar guys - its way off the OPs original post.

 

[PfcAJ]

snip

You seem to be in some black and white world. If you follow the procedure your risks are reduced. I'm not altering statistics. IF you follow the procedure, bad things don't happen. If you don't follow them, you're introducing a higher chance for error and accident. The goal is to reduce accidents through training, procedure, skill, and equipment. You asked if there were cave fatalities where people followed DIR procedures. Well, the answer is 'no'. The procedures are pretty solid.

Don't try and put words in my mouth about calling people strokes, or a '****ing stroke', or anything else. Like I said, I don't really care how you dive. I'll discuss gear, training, procedure, etc, but if you think I'll show up on a dive boat and call someone a 'stroke' you're mistaken.

I also don't think people are 'inferior'. So once again, don't try and tell me what I think about something or someone. You dive how you like (personal preference), and so do I. I just chose the DIR method. That IS my personal preference.

I used to work on a dive boat that catered to kids in the Keys. I stopped kids from jumping off the boat with a slipping tank, trapped octos, turned off air, no mask, etc. Does that make me some sort of elitist ass-hat in your mind?

 

[danvolker]

There are no commonly used recreational gear set-ups that are unsafe. Calling them "pooly configured" and describing common gear as about to cause "catastrophic failure" is just more of the DIR Bull poop and arrogance against us "inferior" rec. divers who like our gear and don't want to conform to your dive religion.

I don't think you and I are thinking about the same thing here....to me, the "poorly configured" would normally mean a fairly new diver, or one that had not been diving for many years, and was now in new equipment, that was not correctly set up...that would not have been the way the shop selling it would have set it up, or the way their original instructor had set it up....In fact, this kind of "poorly configured" diver DOES show up on charter boats sometimes.....some times this poorly configured gets to the point of potentially catastrophic...and so someone like you or I, or AJ ... really would need to step in and gently help this person with the gear....And I am in agreement, that the VAST majority of recreational gear choices they could have...in fact 100% of the "poorly configured" divers I have witnessed, have been with gear that would have been just fine for the recreational use it was intended for, had it been "properly configured"...and this does not imply a DIR configuration, necessarily--and this would usually not even be possible with many of the gear choices this new diver may have....and for me or AJ, or you--all we could do is help as much as possible with what we see the intent of the gear mfg and the diver's original instruction.

The underlying behavior was that all other divers below him are inferior, and this attitude has infected the DIR community. After all, Rec divers are non-DIR divers. In his view, and your's, we're all just strokes. Tell me you or PfcAJ or any other DIR diver isn't reading this, and their first thought isn't "F----ing stroke...".

In fact, to see George on a diveboat --a normal charter, no recreational diver would have thought anything strange about him,--they might have eyed the bp/wing because not many had been seen by recreational divers in the 90's, but there was zero attitude that you suggest....it was all about having fun.
And recreational divers were not strokes...if anything, they were the ones out here for the RIGHT reason!!

 

[T.C.]

Good gravy - take this one off to the bar guys - its way off the OPs original post.

As the thread didn't have an original post, I think we're good.

It was a split from another topic.

You seem to be in some black and white world. If you follow the procedure your risks are reduced. I'm not altering statistics. IF you follow the procedure, bad things don't happen. If you don't follow them, you're introducing a higher chance for error and accident. The goal is to reduce accidents through training, procedure, skill, and equipment. You asked if there were cave fatalities where people followed DIR procedures. Well, the answer is 'no'. The procedures are pretty solid.

So when a DIR diver dies, they're excommunicated from the club, thus they don't count against your track record? IE: "He dove DIR every dive, but this one he died. He is no longer a DIR diver."

If a DIR diver inadvertantly misses one thing without intending or knowing that the missed this item, are they no longer a DIR diver? How long does their ban from the DIR club last? Because at it sounds, you're saying that practicioners of DIR, who followed the procedures until they make a mistake suddenly become non-DIR divers...and thus you can exclude them from the perfect record. That would be the same as PADI saying that every rec. diver who violates their training and dies is no longer a PADI diver, and can't be counted again them...because they weren't following the PADI rules at the time.

And if they're instantly non-DIR, can you say that is how you dive? That every single dive is absolutely 100% perfect, that you never make a mistake, not even once?

DIR is not failsafe, and doesn't have a perfect track record, as you can't exclude someone for a mistake. And the "the procedures are solid" is the attitude that leads to complacency.

Don't try and put words in my mouth about calling people strokes, or a '****ing stroke', or anything else. Like I said, I don't really care how you dive. I'll discuss gear, training, procedure, etc, but if you think I'll show up on a dive boat and call someone a 'stroke' you're mistaken.

I didnt say that you were saying that aloud. Just thinking it. Tell me you weren't thinking this, that when you see a jacked up rec. diver you don't think this about them; I can use a good laugh.

I also don't think people are 'inferior'. So once again, don't try and tell me what I think about something or someone.

I didn't. I said your club founder clearly thought this way, and it permeates the DIR community. Again, tell me it doesn't permeate the DIR community. I can use a good laugh.

I used to work on a dive boat that catered to kids in the Keys. I stopped kids from jumping off the boat with a slipping tank, trapped octos, turned off air, no mask, etc. Does that make me some sort of elitist ass-hat in your mind?

No, it means you did your job as an employee, where you can be held liable for their safety (I hesitate to say responsible, because this is/should be the purview of the diver alone). Second, kids cannot be expected to have the same abilities and responsibilities as a rec. diver.

Where in my recreation as a diver am I given the Right to preach at someone how to configure their gear? Yet, that is what dan is advocating; as if the DIR gear style is somehow superior for recreational diving.