Need your advice regarding DM course...

[doctormike]

This is just my opinion, but any professional, let alone any human being, with training to potentially help someone dying who stands around doing zero out of fear of being sued is a sad individual. I just cannot imagine anyone sheepishly hiding behind other people on the deck of a boat and doing nothing while someone loses a father, mother, child, wife, husband, whatever. I would never be able to look at myself in the mirror again as it seems the a major part of becoming a rescue/divemaster is to train oneself to be there for those who need help. If so afraid of getting sued why would you even accept the certification in the first place?

For some reason the SEINFELD episode when George shoves the old woman, children, and clown to escape the kitchen fire comes to mind.

Yup, great episode!

I really don't think that this is the issue here... not helping in a situation where you knew someone was in danger because you were in fear of a lawsuit. Good Samaritan laws do cover that, by the way, at least in medicine and probably in other situations as well. But the point is well taken that any good person shouldn't think twice and help to the best of their ability in such a situation. The fear of lawsuits is probably overblown in most people's mind.

I think that the main point (which was my concern when I started this thread) was whether having a DM certification would make you liable for problems that you knew nothing about. It seems (from Alex's answer, anyway) that the answer to that question is no.

I don't think that you have an obligation to work as a divemaster just because you can, in a non-emergency situation (e.g. the boat captain asks you to "help out" an underqualified diver). But on the other hand, if you DO see a potential or active problem, you should respond- divemaster or not!

 

[Alex777]

<< I think that the "duty of care" concept is similar to the test for liability with medical malpractice. In order to be succesfully sued, the plaintiff's attorney has to show that you had a doctor-patient relationship, that there was a standard of care that you did not meet, and that there were damages. >>

Exactly ( as far as English law is concerned). And that your act or failure to act caused or contributed to the damages.

Doctor Mike, good luck with your DM course! (And cool off the beer, should we meet).

Alex
(currently on Roatan)

 

[doctormike]

Doctor Mike, good luck with your DM course! (And cool off the beer, should we meet).

Alex
(currently on Roatan)

The beer will be ready, I may be in Honduras this fall...! Dove Roatan last year, it was great...

Thanks again!

 

[Austin]

Great disscussion, might i add You learn something new every day

 

[Jeddah Aquanaut]

Aside from legal obligations, most DM's that I know get frustrated when they're discovered on trips. Alot of times they're paired up with the newbiest diver, or volunteered by the boat Captain to lead the trip. I've heard from several who leave their "DM" card behind on a trip for that very reason.

I'm not trying to talk you out of it, just trying to give you the other downsides.

PS: Stick with that dive shop, that was mighty nice and honest of him to explain all that up front. Most aren't that scrupulous.

Last year, when on a Pro Dive boat trip in Cairns, Oz, I got paired with an instructor for all but 1 of the 11 dives. The last one, he wasn't allowed to go on, because he had exceeeded the allowed max depth of the previous one by 1 meter. Anyway, I got an OW guy with 15 dives. I actually don't mind getting a new diver. It's an extra chance to practice some of the skills DMs do when they're "DM'ing." I just don't like divers who are careless and reckless. Believe me, this category is open to all skill levels! So, give me a new but concientious dive buddy any day.

 

[dherbman]

I'm currently doing the SSI DiveCon class. The material makes it pretty clear that I am obligated to do whatever is in my power to assist in an emergency. Failing to act within my capabilities could subject me to liability. It doesn't matter if I have my card or anyone knows I am a professional at the time of the accident.

In stress and rescue (a non professional cert), you are taught to deal with a situation in a way that you are protected from harm. As a pro, you are expected to face the situation head on. A good example of the difference is in handling a panicked diver. S&R teaches to approach from behind because it is safer for you. Now I am taught to come face on.

A loose quote from the manual: "As a Dive Con, you no longer dive for your own pleasure; you are now responsible for others." This is not limited to people I have under my direct supervision, it means I have a legal obligation to do what ever is in my power to assist in an emergency.

Now, there is an "Active" and "Inactive" status which mainly relates to forking over dues. I'm wondering if Inactive would release me from that obligation. I suspect it would, but am unsure.

 

[GreenDiverDown]

doctormike,

Unfortunately, for guys like us, "going pro" is a great way to ruin a hobby.... just what we need... something else to add to our liabilty. Great!

I did it. I still worry about it.

Do you realize that there is no "tail" offered with professional dive insurance? As far as I can tell, if one gets out of professional diving, the only way to be sure that you have past coverage is to keep your coverage current. That sucks!

 

[AndyNZ]

Mind you that Allex is giving advice per UK law, not US law. Different system. Different standards of judgement.

There's no real difference between US and UK law when it comes to negligence. PADI actually have a very good section on negligence, duty of care, intent and so forth in their book 'Law and the Diving Professional'.

Basically, if there is no duty of care and you do what you are trained to do then I don't see there being any issues.

Do you realize that there is no "tail" offered with professional dive insurance? As far as I can tell, if one gets out of professional diving, the only way to be sure that you have past coverage is to keep your coverage current. That sucks!

Not true. My insurance, arranged through PADI Asia Pacific with Horsell will cover me after I stop paying the premium for any cases raised whilst I was paying the premium - for as long as the policy is still available.

Generally, if your insurance doesn't have this tail off cover you will only need to cover yourself for a period of 7 years after you stop teaching as in professional liability cases there is a statue of limitations that applys to negligence.

 

[GreenDiverDown]

Not true. My insurance, arranged through PADI Asia Pacific with Horsell will cover me after I stop paying the premium for any cases raised whilst I was paying the premium - for as long as the policy is still available.

That would be wonderfull. Unfortunately, my coverage is through a different company and the best that I can figure is there is no tail.

Generally, if your insurance doesn't have this tail off cover you will only need to cover yourself for a period of 7 years after you stop teaching as in professional liability cases there is a statue of limitations that applys to negligence.

Right. I know that there is a limit. But our rates are sky high. Paying them for a number of years while not active and teaching kinda sucks. Insurance in the US is a horse of another color.

 

[AndyNZ]

I know - my insurance explicitly states that it does not cover me if I choose to teach US citizens! The premium skyrockets if I want cover for that....

A friend of mine arranges insurance through TDI that also has a tail out period - through a company in the US. I'll try and find out details and post them.