Need your advice regarding DM course...

[Mystic Gringo]

This is an awesome topic... I am probably going to do the DM thing, and eventually would like to instruct. During my research, I found Padi's website for professional liability insurance where it says that insurance is on a claims-made basis, meaning that if you stop acting in a professional role but a student of your has an accident later on, and names you in the suit... you need to insurance at the time of the claim, not the time of instruction, for it to protect you.

It is a decent site to assist here. I guess I never would think to sue my instructor if I jump into the water without my air on 5 years from now.

 

[AndyNZ]

you need to insurance at the time of the claim, not the time of instruction, for it to protect you.

Depending on policy. Unfortunately for Stephen, his insurance is like this where as I am lucky in that mine will cover me provided I was insured at time of instruction.

If you get certified as a DM, try posting in the Instructor to Instructor forum to find out if anyone can give you a tip on where to get insurance with a tail out period in the US. In many cases it's worth shopping around to get a better deal.

I guess I never would think to sue my instructor if I jump into the water without my air on 5 years from now.

Yeah, but some people think it's unreasonable for a cup of coffee to be served hot with out warning!

My personal favourite of crazy law suits was the woman who used her microwave oven to dry off her dog after it got wet, the argument being that she used to do it with her conventional oven and there was no labelling in the microwave to not put live pets inside it. Sheeeeeesh, some people.

 

[Azza]

My personal favourite of crazy law suits was the woman who used her microwave oven to dry off her dog after it got wet, the argument being that she used to do it with her conventional oven and there was no labelling in the microwave to not put live pets inside it. Sheeeeeesh, some people.

Its almost like some people are too stupid to realise they are stupid and have to blame someone else so they don't have to admit to themselves that they are stupid

 

[ScubyDoo]

When assisting with students, DM's are more liable than any other time. Even then however, students are responsible for thier own actions. So long as a Divemaster makes reasonably prudent decisions, follows the training standards, and follows conservative dive practices, he limits the chances of being successfully sued. The burden of proof is on the prosecution to show that either standards werent met or poor decisions were made. Minus that, it will be difficult for anyone to successfully beat you in court. Major certifying agencies like PADI will most often lend thier considerable resources to aid in a DM's defense as well. Insurance is also in place for all active DM's in case they are held liable. Yes, its something to consider. But so long as you follow standards, follow safe diving practices, and submit all divers in your care to Liability Release forms and Safe Diving Practices forms...you should be fine.

 

[ItsBruce]

Alex777's statement on the law applies to US law pretty accurately.

In addition, in California, despite our general liberality, there is an additional protection for sporting or recreational activities. It is called "primary assumption of the risk." It basically says no one has a duty to protect you from an injury that is an inherent part of the sport or activity, so long as they did not do something to increase the risk. As the California Court of Appela put it: "The duty owed by a coach to a student in his charge is to 'use due care not to increase the risks to a participant over and above those inherent in the sport.'"

Another matter of interest is the liability coverage provided by a homeowners' insurance policy. It is very broad. However, there are two exclusions that you should be wary of: One is for liability arising from or during the course of a business pursuit. If you are being compensated, your liability is not covered. But, if you are just a buddy and happen to be a DM, the exclusion does not apply. The other exclusion is for liability arising from the ownership, maintenance or use of a watercraft. Thus, if the injury happens because of the boat, it is not covered. But, if the boat is just the location, and it could have happened on a dock or the beach, it is covered.

This is not a formal legal opinion, but should give you some guidance. Sorry if this isn't as articulate as it could be, but I wanted to post it before running off to the airport to fetch my wife. TTFN.

 

[lishen]

Mike-
Was wondering what dive shop you were at? I know that there are only a few in the city and my LDS happens to be a block from my apartment too. Just wondering becasue i'm looking to start my DM class this month. This shop seems trustworthy and it was good to see that they weren't pushing you to sign up (aka money for them) and took the time to talk about the class.

Thanks!

PM me if you don't want to reveal the name in the forum

 

[doctormike]

doctormike,

Unfortunately, for guys like us, "going pro" is a great way to ruin a hobby.... just what we need... something else to add to our liabilty. Great!

I did it. I still worry about it.

Do you realize that there is no "tail" offered with professional dive insurance? As far as I can tell, if one gets out of professional diving, the only way to be sure that you have past coverage is to keep your coverage current. That sucks!

Hey, Stephen... sorry about the late response... forgot about this thread!!

You are right, although I would think that tail coverage would be less important with diving than with medicine... Obstetricians have 18 years to worry about something coming up triggering a lawsuit, but I would think that most dive incidents would become lawsuits early on!

I think that your comment really is very important. The bottom line is: will becoming a DM make me more or less happy as a diver...? not sure at this point...

 

[doctormike]

This is an awesome topic... I am probably going to do the DM thing, and eventually would like to instruct. During my research, I found Padi's website for professional liability insurance where it says that insurance is on a claims-made basis, meaning that if you stop acting in a professional role but a student of your has an accident later on, and names you in the suit... you need to insurance at the time of the claim, not the time of instruction, for it to protect you.

I would think that as a DM, this wouldn't be the issue, since you aren't certifying anyone. You are just helping the instructor, and he or she is responsible for the student successfully completing the course. So the concept of a delayed lawsuit would apply more to instructors than to DMs...

 

[ItsBruce]

In the first post on this thread, doctormike expressed concern about possible liability if he gets a DM certification. He asked: "If I am just out diving for fun on a charter or something, and some guy jumps in with his air off and dies, do I have any legal exposure here? I suppose that if he told me that he was going to do something crazy, then I would be obliged to show in court that I did what was reasonable to stop him. But would I be responsible if I didn't know? I'm not talking about on a trip where I would be working as a divemaster, but rather if I was just another diver along for the ride..."

This got me thinking and doing a bit of legal research. Under California law, “As a general rule, one has no duty to come to the aid of another. A person who has not created a peril is not liable in tort merely for failure to take affirmative steps to assist or protect another unless there is some special relationship between them which gives rise to a duty to act.” Thus, it would seem that in California, a DM who is not acting as a DM, would not be liable under the scenarios doctormike mentioned. If the DM were acting as a DM or were buddied with the victim, that would be a different story. Thus, in California, going "pro" does not increase liability unless one is acting as a "pro."

PLEASE NOTE: The law in other places may be different from California. Moreover, this is being presented for informational purposes only and is not the rendition of legal services or legal advice. Even slight differences between fact patterns may result in different outcomes.

 

[Mystic Gringo]

I would think that as a DM, this wouldn't be the issue, since you aren't certifying anyone. You are just helping the instructor, and he or she is responsible for the student successfully completing the course. So the concept of a delayed lawsuit would apply more to instructors than to DMs...

I would tend to agree with you... but from my own professional experience (as an architect, not diving pro, or lawyer), anytime a lawsuit is started, everyone gets named in it... regardless of incident, or role. Lawyers like to name alot of people in order to cover alot of bases. This is ofcourse based in the US... I have no idea for the rest of the world.