Need your advice regarding DM course...

[MoonWrasse]

So, how much does DM insurance cost?

 

[doctormike]

Wow, what a terrific community..! This is the first time that I have asked for help, and I'm really impressed at the response... You guys are great...

I think that it is pretty clear that you do "go pro" as a DM from what I understand- a working DM, even though they don't make very much (and might not be doing much more than carrying tanks!), is still considered a part of the training team. At least by the lawyers, and I guess that is what counts!

The scenario that I was most concerned about was if I was a DM, but not acting in any way in a teaching capacity (just another diver along for the ride). There seems to be some difference of opinion as to how liable you might be. I have read something about this with respect to the "good samaritan" laws (as scuba mentioned), which can shield you from some liability if you are acting with good intentions (http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2005/03/14/prca0314.htm). Don't know if there is any similar law for dive professionals.

Diver0001's point about the deep pockets is a good one... I understand that I will have to pay around $300/year for $1 million insurance. I wonder if my personal assets would be protected if I was sued for more than that..

I agree with pt40fathoms and Kriterian about this questioning reflecting well on the LDS... I'm glad that they aren't just trying to sell patches as fast as they can. I like the shop so far (it is fairly new).

Toadie, I'm pretty sure that you need your own insurance, not covered by the Instructor's policy.

And while it might seem like a good idea to "forget" your DM card when diving for pleasure on your vacation, I'll bet that if a lawyer smelled blood in the water after a serious injury, he might find out what everyone's qualification level is (I think that PADI keeps all of these in some searchable database... do you think that it is secure??)

Finally, I really like triton94949's list of reasons for becoming a DM. I have wanted to do this for a while, am looking forward to it and unless my legal research really scares me off, I'm pretty sure that I'm going to do it this summer...

Thanks again!

Mike

 

[Scuba]

Every DM...or in SSI lingo DiveCon I know leaves their Card behind unless they are diving as the DM. Most carry just the AOW card...Instructors too carry just their AOW. I was warned before I began my DiveCon class about this as well as the additional liability I have because I am a Paramedic. It is not always fair, but it is the cost of fame.

This is an interesting point. Obviously if others are unaware of your qualifications they are less likely to ask you to volunteer to carry out certain tasks. It also makes it easier to decline, too. However, if you agree to accept certain responsibilities, undisclosed fact which may affect you may come out at a later time. The liability issue will not be affected based on whether you have your title with you or not.

PADI considers Divemasters and Assisstant Instructors as pros, its on their website, thus eligible for the type of insurance mentioned.

Looks like doctormike beat me to post covering same subject.

 

[dilligaf368]

I've been a DM for over 25yrs, and Instructor for Commercial diving. That doesn't mean that I am responceble for Every Diver I come across! Only if in some Offical arrangement. If I am Leading a Dive or Instructing. As a Dive Buddy, You are JUST that a dive buddy. I know that Lots of DM think that they are more but, No!
I would like to extend an invitation to learn more and to be going forward in Your education in Diving. No body knows all and surely I don't. I've just been in the water diving for many many years. I also dive hundreds of hours a year. (All except the last two due to surgeries). Good luck and Watch the tables.........Bill

 

[Diver0001]

If you are a DM for a LDS, are you liable, or are you covered under the Instructor's umbrella, or the LDS?

I've heard that some people have this but I don't think it's a good idea because unless you're diving for the shop you're not going to be covered. Get you own insurance.

R..

 

[Diver0001]

So, how much does DM insurance cost?

It varies. In the Netherlands I pay about $200 for membership fees and insurance per year. I would expect it to be higher in the States.

R..

 

[Diver0001]

That doesn't mean that I am responceble for Every Diver I come across! Only if in some Offical arrangement. If I am Leading a Dive or Instructing. As a Dive Buddy, You are JUST that a dive buddy.

There have been some good discussions about this point in the past. Speaking only for myself I just "see" stuff (most people who train a lot probably do). It's a sort of radar for little problems that you develop. You know what I mean. That's not to say that I feel responsible for everyone around me, but I can't just let some stuff ride because I'm acting like "just another diver" or I'm not that person's buddy. Usually the crew catches it too and I'll usually wait to give the crew the chance; I don't want to be in the way. However, (to pick a real-world example), if a diver hasn't done a buddy check and I picked up on my radar that their air is still turned off then I'm not going to stand aroudn like a dumb cow and let him jump in like that just because it's my day off. Is that taking responsibility? Is it being alert? I don't know and I don't really think it matters. This is what I was getting at when I said that you're never really just another diver.

R..

 

[Snowbear]

And while it might seem like a good idea to "forget" your DM card when diving for pleasure on your vacation, I'll bet that if a lawyer smelled blood in the water after a serious injury, he might find out what everyone's qualification level is (I think that PADI keeps all of these in some searchable database... do you think that it is secure??)

There IS a way around this, at least with PADI. I found out accidentally that when someone looks you up in PADI's database, it actually make a difference if you used your middle initial when you filled out the certification form. For my OW and AOW I did. For my DM I did not.... So if I present my AOW card or have the shop do a search using my middle initial, that I'm a DM does not show up. If I present it w/o my middle initial, it does.

So for me, I can be just a plain ol' diver and as long as I don't mention the DM thing and fill out the waiver forms w/o using my middle initial, no-one will ever be the wiser

 

[sweatfrog]

Hi, guys...

I have been wanting to do a DM course for a couple of years. I love diving, and I also love teaching, and it sounded like a great way to let me get a little further into the sport. I took the prerequisite courses last year (Rescue and CPR), but didn't have time during the summer. Now, there is a very nice LDS about one block from my home in NYC, so I decided to talk with them about it.

The instructor who runs the course sat down with me to ask why I wanted to do it (not in a confontational way, just wanted to see where I was coming from)... he seemed happy with my reasons, but then he said that I had do understand that by going "pro" I would be exposed to legal obligations that I didn't currently have. He was careful not to try to scare me off, but he did feel obliged to discuss this with me.

He said that once I was a DM, I would be responsible for the safety, to some degree, of other people that I was diving with. He mentioned the standard of the "reasonably prudent person".

I guess I'm not sure what the real world implications of this are. If I am just out diving for fun on a charter or something, and some guy jumps in with his air off and dies, do I have any legal exposure here? I suppose that if he told me that he was going to do something crazy, then I would be obliged to show in court that I did what was reasonable to stop him. But would I be responsible if I didn't know? I'm not talking about on a trip where I would be working as a divemaster, but rather if I was just another diver along for the ride...

Any thoughts?


Thanks!

Mike

Since you're a doctor, you have accepted an additional level of responsibiliy. This means that you need to check with your insurance company before you progress.

The insurance for DM's isn't required unless you're upping the numbers in a class, or doing DSDs and other things allowed on your own. Since you have a lot to potentially lose in a lawsuit (versus a college student) you need to seriously consider the risk/benefit factor. The knowledge is very good, even if you find the liability may be too high to help with classes.

I'm sure you know defense lawyers aren't stupid and if you are named in a suit, they will ferret out your true identity.

Sorry if this post confuses you, but you need to know the facts. Your LDS is on target.

 

[doctormike]

Since you're a doctor, you have accepted an additional level of responsibiliy. This means that you need to check with your insurance company before you progress.

The insurance for DM's isn't required unless you're upping the numbers in a class, or doing DSDs and other things allowed on your own. Since you have a lot to potentially lose in a lawsuit (versus a college student) you need to seriously consider the risk/benefit factor. The knowledge is very good, even if you find the liability may be too high to help with classes.

I'm sure you know defense lawyers aren't stupid and if you are named in a suit, they will ferret out your true identity.

Sorry if this post confuses you, but you need to know the facts. Your LDS is on target.

Not confusing at all... you make a very good point (one that I had considered as well)... any lawyer is always going to go for the deep pockets. On the other hand, I hate to see that potential (and uncertain) fear have a chilling effect on everything that I do.

I am always talking about risk analysis with parents (for example, about surgery). The rarity of the risk is as important as the risk itself. Yes, it is true that I could conceivably lose a lot if I was just vacationing on a dive boat, someone had an accident and a lawyer found out that I was a DM with some assets. My malpractice insurance would have nothing to do with this- that only would cover me if I tried to treat someone on the boat as a physician. On the other hand, I want to enjoy my life... I ride my bike in city traffic, I dive, I travel. You can't make your life totally secure, and it's not a good idea to try, either.

When a kid's parents are considering surgery (even something minor), 95% of their anxiety is about the anesthesia. You read about anesthesia disasters like you read about plane crashes- very dramatic, and VERY rare. But they are so scary, that they make people irrational. I point out that the risk of a "life threatening event" under anesthesia (I try not to use the word "fatal"!) in a healthy child is about 1 in 300,000. And that might be pretty scary taken out of context... what if you are the one? But then I point out that giving someone a dose of penicillin has about a one in 80,000 chance of a fatal reaction, and we give that out like candy... most parents would jump at the chance of substituting penicillin for anesthesia. THEN, I point out that the risk of a fatal automobile accident, if you ride in a car in the US for a year, is 1 in 7000!

The point is, that no matter how scary something is, you need to look at things in context. So since I really think that I would like to do the DM course because it would make me a better diver, and let me help to share what I love with new divers, I might make the decision to go ahead despite the very remote risk of me losing a lot of money in a freak lawsuit.

Very similar to most non-divers fears about diving. What is the #1 fear? Sharks! Never mind that more people are killed by bees, pigs or donkeys each year, the concept of a shark attack is just so terrifying to most people that it doesn't matter how rare it is.

Anyway, sorry about the long post, but this is an interesting topic, huh? I guess the veteran members have heard it all before...



Mike