Need your advice regarding DM course...

[doctormike]

Hi, guys...

I have been wanting to do a DM course for a couple of years. I love diving, and I also love teaching, and it sounded like a great way to let me get a little further into the sport. I took the prerequisite courses last year (Rescue and CPR), but didn't have time during the summer. Now, there is a very nice LDS about one block from my home in NYC, so I decided to talk with them about it.

The instructor who runs the course sat down with me to ask why I wanted to do it (not in a confontational way, just wanted to see where I was coming from)... he seemed happy with my reasons, but then he said that I had do understand that by going "pro" I would be exposed to legal obligations that I didn't currently have. He was careful not to try to scare me off, but he did feel obliged to discuss this with me.

He said that once I was a DM, I would be responsible for the safety, to some degree, of other people that I was diving with. He mentioned the standard of the "reasonably prudent person".

I guess I'm not sure what the real world implications of this are. If I am just out diving for fun on a charter or something, and some guy jumps in with his air off and dies, do I have any legal exposure here? I suppose that if he told me that he was going to do something crazy, then I would be obliged to show in court that I did what was reasonable to stop him. But would I be responsible if I didn't know? I'm not talking about on a trip where I would be working as a divemaster, but rather if I was just another diver along for the ride...

Any thoughts?


Thanks!

Mike

 

[Diver0001]

Hi, guys...

I have been wanting to do a DM course for a couple of years. I love diving, and I also love teaching, and it sounded like a great way to let me get a little further into the sport. I took the prerequisite courses last year (Rescue and CPR), but didn't have time during the summer. Now, there is a very nice LDS about one block from my home in NYC, so I decided to talk with them about it.

The instructor who runs the course sat down with me to ask why I wanted to do it (not in a confontational way, just wanted to see where I was coming from)... he seemed happy with my reasons, but then he said that I had do understand that by going "pro" I would be exposed to legal obligations that I didn't currently have. He was careful not to try to scare me off, but he did feel obliged to discuss this with me.

He said that once I was a DM, I would be responsible for the safety, to some degree, of other people that I was diving with. He mentioned the standard of the "reasonably prudent person".

I guess I'm not sure what the real world implications of this are. If I am just out diving for fun on a charter or something, and some guy jumps in with his air off and dies, do I have any legal exposure here? I suppose that if he told me that he was going to do something crazy, then I would be obliged to show in court that I did what was reasonable to stop him. But would I be responsible if I didn't know? I'm not talking about on a trip where I would be working as a divemaster, but rather if I was just another diver along for the ride...

Any thoughts?


Thanks!

Mike

I think it's fair to say that once you're a "pro" that there is a slightly different expectation regarding your conduct. You're never really "just another diver" anymore, but it grows on you and you'll soon adjust to what that means. Moreover, I would think that the number of cases of Divemasters really being put through the wringer for things that could have happened to anybody is pretty small. While I think it was prudent for your instructor to discuss this with you, I think the actual liability risk you run can easily be overstated.

In terms of the way it works, I don't think being a DM is really even the biggest issue. It's being insured that creates the real risk. If you're insured today then you're running the same risk but the difference is that nobody took the time to tell you..... In a damages case the lawyers don't care what card you have or what you did or even if it was right or wrong. You may have saved someone's life and you'll still get sued if the lawyer smells money (if they think they can win the case). Many are not encumbered by any sense of moral obligation to judge the situation based on any humanitarian values but you are (or should be) so all you can do is do the right thing and let the chips fall where they fall. That's why you have insurance, so you are free to do the right thing and let the insurance people deal with the litigation lottery.
Hope that helps.

R..

 

[pt40fathoms]

The instructor you spoke to should be commended for telling you this up front. All too many times it is done after money has changed hands. He's completely correct in his information about your liability after "going Pro", and you will need to carry liability insurance even if you decide later in life to no longer work in any professional capacity. By working with students, our exposure to litigation is far beyond what a normal person realizes, thanks to some very questionable rulings by judges and the visions of dollar signs floating above "some" lawyers heads. I’m luck that at least in Canada we have a “looser pays” system, which in effect makes the looser of a litigation pay for all court costs, fees, and the other persons lawyers fees as well. This forces a lot of trivial law suits to be dumped by the lawyers who would go after the case, simply because they may not get paid and may even end up costing them money.

So yes, it sucks, and insurance companies get to rack in the money. All because 11 years ago you may have been the DM on an OW course, and one of the students just died after diving into a cave at 360 foot depth, without the proper training. How it’s your fault is beyond simple reasoning, but simple reasoning seems to be beyond the grasp of the courts and judges.

Ow….I just spilled my coffee…who can I sue?

 

[Scuba]

Good subject, obviously legal implications are best addressed by lawyers. But since you asked here, keep in mind that many "pros" have what I would consider a distorted view on this subject, somewhat understandable. You may soon join them. LOL

He said that once I was a DM, I would be responsible for the safety, to some degree, of other people that I was diving with. He mentioned the standard of the "reasonably prudent person".

Responsibilities of a reasonably prudent person acting in a professional capacity. Not acting in such capacity. You're a doctor, the core issues here apply across the spectrum. Are you obligated to assist a person in need of medical attention you encounter in your time off? Laws regarding this issue vary as to jurisdictions. I believe some states demand such action, others do not. Then you have the good Samaritan laws that apply once you voluntarily act to assist during your off duty. These laws are most likely much more defined regarding the medical profession than diving. I'm sure you appraise the inherently identical or very similar issues in common.

I guess I'm not sure what the real world implications of this are. If I am just out diving for fun on a charter or something, and some guy jumps in with his air off and dies, do I have any legal exposure here?

Again, not a dive pro or attorney, but as someone who considers himself a reasonably prudent person, most of the time anyways, as a diver it is not my job to check everyone's air. The same would apply to pros not at work. Many would probably tell you it doesn't apply while at work either. On the other hand, buddy checks are everyone's responsibilities, to their buddy. Especial consideration applies here of a pro licensed by an agency advising such practice. You are not at work, yet, can not escape the fact you are a licensed pro, and should be more aware of safety practices than the average prudent person. You would now be a reasonably prudent person who is a dive pro.

I suppose that if he told me that he was going to do something crazy, then I would be obliged to show in court that I did what was reasonable to stop him. But would I be responsible if I didn't know? I'm not talking about on a trip where I would be working as a divemaster, but rather if I was just another diver along for the ride...Mike

How could anyone be held accountable for the totally unpredictable erratic behavior of others? Though I agree the concern is some will try to do so. This is not an issue unique to diving. Basically, we must ultimately decide how, and what is going to dictate, how we live our lives.

Every situation is different, and good common sense is required to avoid pitfalls that invite legal cases. Matters of concern both to the reasonably prudent diver and diver pro. It is not possible to completely avoid them. Being a pro increases these risks. The question is are they worth the rewards you may not recieve as a diver?

I think examples such as the one given by pt40fathoms are unreasonable urban myths. A fear carried to an extreme phobia. I also think there is not an insignificant number of dive pros out there who deserve every thing they have coming. And many others who all too often get away with endangering their customers and remain unaccountable.

The legal system is far from perfect. But for every example of undeserved and over punishment, there are most likely others who go underpunished and unpunished.

 

[Kriterian]

Aside from legal obligations, most DM's that I know get frustrated when they're discovered on trips. Alot of times they're paired up with the newbiest diver, or volunteered by the boat Captain to lead the trip. I've heard from several who leave their "DM" card behind on a trip for that very reason.

I'm not trying to talk you out of it, just trying to give you the other downsides.

PS: Stick with that dive shop, that was mighty nice and honest of him to explain all that up front. Most aren't that scrupulous.

 

[Spratman]

I would think the best place to post to get a lawyer's answer is try the Shark Forum...

Now I'll probably get sued for defaming the sharks...

Jack

 

[Toadie]

I'm doing my DM right now and I'm a little miffed that I wasn't told about this. I guess it was something that I never thought about and to be honest I never asked. I did hear though that when people find out your a DM they do try to recruit you. One question I have is this...

If you are a DM for a LDS, are you liable, or are you covered under the Instructor's umbrella, or the LDS?

 

[MoonWrasse]

Hmmm...I was considering doing a DM someday, just for my own betterment.

Now I'm thinking the best thing to do would be take the class, but intentionally fail the swim tests, thus gaining the experience yet never sharing in the liability as I would not be a DM

 

[ParamedicDiver1]

I've heard from several who leave their "DM" card behind on a trip for that very reason.

Every DM...or in SSI lingo DiveCon I know leaves their Card behind unless they are diving as the DM. Most carry just the AOW card...Instructors too carry just their AOW. I was warned before I began my DiveCon class about this as well as the additional liability I have because I am a Paramedic. It is not always fair, but it is the cost of fame.

 

[triton94949]

As a DM candidate you are not truly "going pro." You are simply becoming a better diver and learning how to help other divers on an individual basis. When you become an instructor, you will have "gone pro."

As a DM you do need your own insurance. That is because divers will be listening to you, and if something goes wrong, and there is an injury, there will most likely be a lawsuit. By getting the coverage, you join the pool of cost-sharing contributors against frivilous lawsuits.

I am not sure why the instructor quizzed you on your whys and wherefores. Most instructors would jump at the chance to get a DMC. Extra fees and extra help.

There are many good reasons to become a DM. One good reason is that in this day and age, most dive students never really complete their diving education until they complete a DM course. Another good reason is that it gives you more diving opportunities. A third reason is that it gives you a limited opportunity to teach individually. A fourth reason is that it gives you the opportunity to be an understudy to a real pro -- an instructor. A fifth reason is because it is challenging. A sixth reason is because you will learn more about yourself. A seventh reason is that you will become a better person, watching over others and caring about them. An eight reason is that it qualifies you to join an ITC and become an expert diver -- an instructor.

PM me if you need any more reasons.