Need your advice regarding DM course...

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Let me give a lawyer's answer to this.

First, be aware that liability for a diving accident will usually be judged by the law of the country where the accident occurred. That remains true whether the lawsuit is started in your home jurisdiction or not. Being sued in California, where you live, for an accident in Roatan? Your liability will depend upon the California judge's understanding of the law of Honduras (aided by Honduran legal experts). It is dangerous and misleading to assume that all legal systems are the same or, worse, that the law of the USA will always be the governing law.

English law applies in the UK and in all English Overseas Territories, including the Cayman Is., the Turks & Caicos Is, Bermuda, Anguilla, BVI, etc. Former colonies can be assumed to have very similar regimes. As far as English law is concerned:

You cannot be liable for a diving accident unless you have assumed a duty of care to the Victim/Patient. You may assume one expressly, by agreeing to instruct, guide, or buddy up with him (whether for pay or not). You could assume a duty of care implicitly: the DM says you will buddy with X, and you don’t disagree. The most common way to assume a duty of care you would not otherwise have is to intervene in an emergency and try to help.

You do NOT assume a duty of care simply by virtue of your DM certification, whether you advertise it or hide it. Any lawyer who is consulted about a diving accident will ask, as question #1, what were the qualifications of the potential defendant? You can’t hide them. On the other hand, you could wear an “I am a DM” T-shirt on the dive boat but, unless you are a part of the staff and not just a guest, your duty of care is owed only to your own buddy.

Assuming you have a duty of care, you will be liable if, but only if, you failed to act as a reasonably prudent person WITH YOUR TRAINING & QUALIFICATIONS would have acted. The standard is usually stated as that of the “reasonably prudent person” but this is too general: we are speaking here of the reasonably prudent DM who is assumed to remember and use all of his training. It doesn’t matter whether the Victim/Patient knows you are a DM or not. If you ignore your training, you are (by definition) not acting as a reasonably prudent person. Good Samaritan laws, which exist in some places but not others, may provide some (?) additional protection but don’t really change this much. This standard does not require perfection; accidents happen, diving is a (somewhat) dangerous sport, and divers are deemed to assume some risk voluntarily. To find you liable, the judge must be satisfied that your performance, taking all the circumstances into account, fell below what the hypothetical prudent DM, acting reasonably, would have accomplished.

Finally, your negligence (meaning, in this context, failure to perform according to the standard described above) must be shown to have caused or contributed to the unfortunate result. If you had performed to the required standard, would that have made a difference? Not infrequently, the answer is “No.”

DM liability insurance is important because it protects you against the cost (in legal fees) of unmeritorious lawsuits (the US has a lot of these, it seems) as well as those where you screwed up. Even the hypothetical “perfect” DM should keep his insurance current.

My advice? Get your DM certification, keep your skills and your insurance up to date, and have fun diving!

You're welcome! Here's your bill ...
 
Becoming a divemaster is a great step to increasing your knowledge and experience as a diver but is also not the only way. If you are a keen diver you can always increase your knowledge by reading the divemaster manual and other publications as well as chatting to experienced divers. You can also look into more technical diving to increase your knowledge and abilities. I must admit personally that I did learn a lot from the Divemaster course and even more from becoming a Instructor.
As a Divemaster or Instructor you can only decrease the risks of any accidents from occurring. You can not protect all divers from all situations and in a court of law they have to look at this. However as a diving professional you will have all your actions gone over with a fine tooth comb to ensure you did every thing within your capabilities to avoid the accident. So ensure you decrease the risks at every opportunity. This means that sometimes you may have to be the one to stop people from having fun if you believe that the risk is too high.
I believe that the most dangerous divers are those with some knowledge and who believe that they are invincible. These types of people are the ones who will challenge your authority. So just remember you’re the one who will be pulled over the hot coals if it hits the fan!
Try to avoid putting yourself in any bad situations and you will decrease the risks.
That along with using your training and knowledge to help others should ensure the risks involved are minimal and this should also mean that you can enjoy your self whilst diving and supervising others.
Showing others the underwater world is very rewarding however if you dont enjoy it just go back to pleasure diving. All the best!!
www.diveantarctica.com
 
Alex777:
Let me give a lawyer's answer to this.



You're welcome! Here's your bill ...

Now look at that.

Here I am about to hire a dive attorney for a consultation, and Alex777 goes and takes away that poor guy's fee... That answer is JUST what I wanted to hear, but I have to wonder about what kind of lawyer gives the answer BEFORE asking for a retainer...!

I think that we are all so spooked about lawsuits, that we assume that they are these uncontrollable forces of nature, that no matter careful we are we can lose everything based on an absurd claim. Thanks for putting this into perspective. I really didn't understand how you could be liable if you were merely in physical proximity to someone else's mistake.

I think that the "duty of care" concept is similar to the test for liability with medical malpractice. In order to be succesfully sued, the plaintiff's attorney has to show that you had a doctor-patient relationship, that there was a standard of care that you did not meet, and that there were damages. For example, I have been giving out GENERAL advice for years through this site- http://www.kids-ent.com. I am very careful to ensure that no doctor-patient relationship is established, and I have had over 3000 email interchanges with parents over the past seven years through the site...



Alex, you totally rock. I will be happy to pay you in one of two ways:

1) If we are ever diving together, I'll get the drinks afterwards...

2) If you have asthma or allergies, you can read the free medical advice that I am currently posting here: http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=96220


Mike
 
doctormike:
Now look at that.

Here I am about to hire a dive attorney for a consultation, and Alex777 goes and takes away that poor guy's fee... That answer is JUST what I wanted to hear, but I have to wonder about what kind of lawyer gives the answer BEFORE asking for a retainer...!

I think that we are all so spooked about lawsuits, that we assume that they are these uncontrollable forces of nature, that no matter careful we are we can lose everything based on an absurd claim. Thanks for putting this into perspective. I really didn't understand how you could be liable if you were merely in physical proximity to someone else's mistake.

I think that the "duty of care" concept is similar to the test for liability with medical malpractice. In order to be succesfully sued, the plaintiff's attorney has to show that you had a doctor-patient relationship, that there was a standard of care that you did not meet, and that there were damages. For example, I have been giving out GENERAL advice for years through this site- http://www.kids-ent.com. I am very careful to ensure that no doctor-patient relationship is established, and I have had over 3000 email interchanges with parents over the past seven years through the site...



Alex, you totally rock. I will be happy to pay you in one of two ways:

1) If we are ever diving together, I'll get the drinks afterwards...

2) If you have asthma or allergies, you can read the free medical advice that I am currently posting here: http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=96220


Mike

Mind you that Allex is giving advice per UK law, not US law. Different system. Different standards of judgement.
 
MoonWrasse:
Mind you that Allex is giving advice per UK law, not US law. Different system. Different standards of judgement.


Right, and even by US standards, there might be different liability on a state by state basis. He is clealy not acting as my attorney, but just giving a good summary of what reasonable jurisprudence would be. Although UK law is obviously different than US law, they do share a number of underlying principles..

I realize that I will never be 100% safe in any endeavor- diving, teaching, biking, practicing medicine, etc... But at some point you have to look at any situation, ask if your fears are realistic or far-fetched, and make a decision about going forward.
 
doctormike:
Right, and even by US standards, there might be different liability on a state by state basis. He is clealy not acting as my attorney, but just giving a good summary of what reasonable jurisprudence would be. Although UK law is obviously different than US law, they do share a number of underlying principles..

I realize that I will never be 100% safe in any endeavor- diving, teaching, biking, practicing medicine, etc... But at some point you have to look at any situation, ask if your fears are realistic or far-fetched, and make a decision about going forward.
Yes, and you may already be in a state of mind compatable with making those risk-reward decisions, as a doctor. I know at least one doctor who likes keeping that fact status discrete :)
 
Becoming a divemaster is a great step to increasing your knowledge and
experience as a diver but is also not the only way. If you are a keen diver you
can always increase your knowledge by reading the divemaster manual and other
publications as well as chatting to experienced divers. You can also look into
more technical diving to increase your knowledge and abilities. I must admit
personally that I did learn a lot from the Divemaster course and even more from
becoming a Instructor.
As a Divemaster or Instructor you can only decrease the risks of any accidents
from occurring. You can not protect all divers from all situations and in a
court of law they have to look at this. However as a diving professional you
will have all your actions gone over with a fine tooth comb to ensure you did
every thing within your capabilities to avoid the accident. So ensure you
decrease the risks at every opportunity. This means that sometimes you may have
to be the one to stop people from having fun if you believe that the risk is too
high.
I believe that the most dangerous divers are those with some knowledge and who
believe that they are invincible. These types of people are the ones who will
challenge your authority. So just remember you’re the one who will be pulled
over the hot coals if it hits the fan!
Try to avoid putting yourself in any bad situations and you will decrease the
risks.
That along with using your training and knowledge to help others should ensure
the risks involved are minimal and this should also mean that you can enjoy your
self whilst diving and supervising others.
Showing others the underwater world is very rewarding however if you dont enjoy
it just go back to pleasure diving. All the best!!
www.diveantarctica.com
************
 
MoonWrasse:
Hmmm...I was considering doing a DM someday, just for my own betterment.

Now I'm thinking the best thing to do would be take the class, but intentionally fail the swim tests, thus gaining the experience yet never sharing in the liability as I would not be a DM :wink:
Just get yourself a copy of the diving encyclodedia and read that cover to cover

ParamedicDiver1:
Every DM...or in SSI lingo DiveCon I know leaves their Card behind unless they are diving as the DM. Most carry just the AOW card...Instructors too carry just their AOW. I was warned before I began my DiveCon class about this as well as the additional liability I have because I am a Paramedic. It is not always fair, but it is the cost of fame. :wink:
I think this is a false, if there was an accident and you DIDNT declare your status it makes no difference, you are still a DM, instructor, whatever and would be expected to provide the support neccesary.

Personally i always show my DM card as it gets the "60 dive wonder" DM's off my back, I am then free to do what I want to do. :11ztongue
 
Albion:
I think this is a false, if there was an accident and you DIDNT declare your status it makes no difference, you are still a DM, instructor, whatever and would be expected to provide the support neccesary.

Personally i always show my DM card as it gets the "60 dive wonder" DM's off my back, I am then free to do what I want to do.
11ztongue.gif

I agree with Albion. What happened if there was a diver emergency, and a couple of rescue divers started sorting the situation and you said nothing because it was all under control, then it turned out that the diver kicked the bucket later on due to something that was missed, and it comes up that you were a DM and did nothing?
I would say they would go for you because you are a "dive proffesional" and should have offered assistance.

I always show my DM card. If you show your AOW card around here you get treated like a dip ****.
If anyone requested that I start taking responsibility, or wanted to buddy me up with a poorly skilled novice diver or any other concievable situation that involves my DM skills, I would request cash in the hand up front, as well as full reinbursment of all monies paid. As a professional I DONT work for free. Its because of "professionals" around the world who WILL work for free that the pay rates in the industry are crap! A true professional never works for free unless its a worthy cause, and making money for other bugger ain't a worthy cause!

Just my .02
 
This is just my opinion, but any professional, let alone any human being, with training to potentially help someone dying who stands around doing zero out of fear of being sued is a sad individual. I just cannot imagine anyone sheepishly hiding behind other people on the deck of a boat and doing nothing while someone loses a father, mother, child, wife, husband, whatever. I would never be able to look at myself in the mirror again as it seems the a major part of becoming a rescue/divemaster is to train oneself to be there for those who need help. If so afraid of getting sued why would you even accept the certification in the first place?

For some reason the SEINFELD episode when George shoves the old woman, children, and clown to escape the kitchen fire comes to mind.
 
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