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None of this thread is stupid.
Its all very enlightening, I have learnt alot from it, both Technical and Psycological.

Nothing more fun than a heated debate, It brings ou the best and the worst in people, hell, even the Pollies still do it!!!!

Without debate, we would never get to know what people really think!!!!

So.............who likes Split fins?

:hiding:
 
tampascott once bubbled...
Hey, that gives me a great idea. I could make a fortune selling to DIR guys a sticker of the "pee-guy" relieving himself on a diver wearing a vest bcd with Air2.

Now, would that be with a proper P-Valve?
 
The problem I think we're running into here is that the DIRmaniacs have taken the concept of the Air2 and compared it against the DIR configuration, which they claim is superior, and therefore its acceptable and reasonable to take cheap shots at the Air2.

But that's an improper comparison for a number of reasons, some of which I will list:

1. In an OPEN WATER environment, the "long hose" concept is a nice idea, but has some problems - particularly with hose routing using TRADITIONAL BCs.

2. Expecting everyone to toss their gear that they like and "DO IT RIGHT" is a great way to win converts. NOT! If your system won't adapt to various configurations, then you're asking for people to be all robots - and identical. That might work in a cave where there are very solid reasons for NEEDING the long hose (like being able to swim out single-file if you have to donate) but THAT argument simply doesn't apply to open water - at all.

3. Once you ACCEPT that people WILL use jacket BCs, back-inflate BCs, and even wings and plates, then you need to come up with a solution that works for what the person is diving.

With the exception of the plate + wing people, the long hose + necklaced secondary doesn't work very well, simply for want of routing capability.

Ok. That leaves us with a traditional Octo or an Air2.

The traditional Octo has problems. It is not usually where you can see it, especially with some vests that block vision forward and down. Since its not where you see it while swimming, if it comes loose you might not know it until after you fill it with sand, and the wrong time to figure it out is when someone needs to use it.

The Air2 has a significant advantage here in that it is NOT going to drag in the sand or mud. It is on the BC inflator hose, which is a LOT shorter and closer to the body. Its also in a KNOWN place all the time, since you are using it for buoyancy control on a frequent basis, and you know how to find that hose easily in a pinch.

The "might press the inflator buttons" argument is a red herring. I've TRIED to "accidentially" hit my inflator and do something underwater - if you don't pinch it off between something solid, the buttons won't activate. The return springs are simply too stiff. This SHOULD be the case for all inflators, I'd argue, but it definitely IS the case for the Air2.

The Air2 is very easy to breathe at depth. I've tested it at 100 fsw, and it breathed fine. Yeah, its stiffer than my S600 - but not by a lot, and try as I might I couldn't overbreathe it - and I DID try. If yours doesn't work well, perhaps it needs service.... like any other reg!

You want to argue that they are prone to leak? Gee, service again. What, that's a problem? How come its not for your necklaced backup? Oh, it is? Then what's the difference?

My Air2 doesn't leak AT ALL!

Me thinks the "loyal opposition" is proceeding from a false premise.

My premise is that the "default config" is a standard Octo. From that configuration, I argue that the Air2 provides a significant improvement in both safety and usability, while significantly reducing clutter.

Yours is parroting something I read on the WKPP/DIR web page in the form of a rant (almost word-for-word), and parroted as truth. That immediately calls into question whether you've actually ever owned - or used - one of these things.
 
Who mentioned DIR???

And why again can't you use a necklaced backup reg with a "traditional" bc? Where's the routing problem?

The long hose is nice, but I don't remember anyone suggesting it in this conversation.
 
Scott,
I recently bought an Air source (AirII equiv). After a couple of sets of drills I returned it for the following reasons:

1. The TV remote syndrome: One device trying to be too many things gets too complicated and (human) error prone. I prefer things to have an unequivocal fuction - particularly in a stress situation.

2. I found the restricted head movement unnerving. Just about had to use one hand to hold it in my mouth - definitely something I would not want to be doing while possibly dealing with a panicked OOA diver.

3. Hard to protect when not in the water. I like to keep regs in their own bag and disconnecting from the BC every time did not seem like a good solution.

I was disappointed - I would really like one less hose. More practice MIGHT have alleviated some of my concerns but you cannot thrash something then return it so decisions needed to be made.

My experience - for what it is worth.

Graham
 
detroit diver once bubbled...

As for being called "lad", I don't need that condescending tone either.
Ye look pretty young t'me... I dinna think ye'd prefer "lass."
Rick
Please pass the haggis.
I know.. I know, I'm a bad boy... but I just couldn't resist.
 
I could have sworn some poor diver was asking for some help hooking up a piece of equipment and we now have 5 pages of "mine is bigger". What a bunch of CRAP!!!
 
Grajan, I can certainly respect your opinion since it's based on personal experience, and it didn't work for you.

I think part of the reason mine works so well for me is that I have a ScubaPro Classic Plus BCD with the ScubaPro Air2. With SP manufacturing both pieces, it seems very streamlined to me. The design of the BC compliments the usage of the Air2, with the large extra air release valve on the right shoulder. In fact, I have gotten myself in the habit of using that right shoulder valve, so that it is not an extra task in the event that I am using my Air2.

Someone mentioned having a terrible time breathing off of their Air2 at 40ft. I would have that looked at, and all I can say is my experience has been the opposite. I was helping a class of BOW students this past weekend, and when simulating an OOA at 40 ft, my AIR2 breathed every bit as good as my $450 aqualung legend primary second stage. However, when I simulated being out of air, and got the octo from my buddy, it was like trying to suck a frozen milkshake through a straw.
 
Um I was thinking of staying out of this but here goes!!
I have used a air2 for over 800 dives!!
Ive had it freeflow on me about 4 times during these dives.
3 out of the 4 I uplugged the supply hose and plugged it back on
and the freeflow stopped!! If you leave the hose unplugged you can still manually fill your bc with your mouth! And as far as a octo
around the neck what happens when this freeflows? If you are using a single tank your options are?? Ive been using this setup
(octo around the neck) lately. Been using a backplate wing setup.
It works and so does a bc and air2. I think a lot of people form opinions on what people tell them. I am forming my opinion on 15 years of using a air2!!! 95% of these dives where lobster dives
ie grabbing lobsters out from under rocks hitting the air2 many times and taking serious abuse. In every month of the year up here in new england. If you dont like air2s thats fine but they are not junk in my opinion!!!!
my 2 cents
Rick L
 
Guys,

The Air 2 is a perfectly legitimate piece of equipment and works fine. I've used mine for 14 years. Have I had problems with it? Yes. What were they? The Air 2 will get sand in it when you are doing a beach dive because of the surf action. If you don't clean it after the beach dive, it is likely to free flow the next time you dive. Sometimes the free flow cannot be stopped except by disconnecting the inflator hose. I have learned to take better care of my Air 2 and clean it after every beach dive. Most open water dives will not cause a problem. I suspect that an octopus that is not rigged with a bungee (I've seen a lot of these.) will have the same problems. Some technicians have had problems adjusting the Air 2 correctly.

I have used my Air 2 at many depths, from 20 to 120 fsw, to see how it breathes and to test it on nearly every dive. Does it breathe as good as my primary? No, it does not. Is is supposed to? No, it is not. Will it get me to the surface from > 100fsw with someone that is out of air? Absolutely. It has and will again. By the way, when someone is really out of air, they head to the nearest diver, not necessarily their buddy, and they pull the regulator out of the persons mouth. When this happens to you, be ready to get your octopus, Air 2 or not, because I can guarantee you, you will not get your primary out of the OOA diver's mouth. They are generally not thinking very clearly at that point. The best thing you can do, is get your octopus, look them in the eye, give them the Ok sign, they should begin to think a little here, and hopefully they will give you the OK sign back. Then you take them to the surface, slowly and with normal safety stops, assuming you have the air to do so.

I like my Air 2, it is exactly what I wanted when I bought it 14 years ago and it still is what I want on my rig. And yes, I have been called a stroke on this board. I'm kind of proud of that. When it happened, I didn't even know what the term meant. Now I know and don't care.
 

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