Need help choosing a doubles wing.

[elgoog]

Deep Sea Supply doesnt exist anymore do they? Or do they exist under a different name?

It's gone for now while he moves out of CA - in theory, he's setting up shop again in his new home state but IDK.

I guess if you're worried about warranty then it's a problem but I've used his wings and backplates since I did OW and never had any issues that my LDS or I couldn't fix.

 

[tbone1004]

since this blew up, the responses are a bit out of order.

@chasep255 holding a safety stop is not something you'd do without redundant buoyancy, but for the deco stops, that can be accomplished with a lift bag and should be taught during your training.

Please expand on why you think that most would dive a single HP130 vs Double AL80s? Assuming all are filled to rated pressure you are loosing 30CF of gas and you are losing redundancy unless you use a pony with the 130.

same relative shift in buoyancy from full to empty. That shift is what determines the need for redundant buoyancy. Wetsuits compound the shift as a function of depth obviously, but for double AL80's you shouldn't need redundant buoyancy because of the tanks themselves. 12lbs is easy enough to kick up. We require students to bring a 10lb diving brick up from the bottom of the pool without fins and keep it at the surface which is not difficult. 12lbs with fins on is a cakewalk with the 130, and 14lbs for the double 80's is not significantly different. How long you can keep it up is one thing, but that's a different discussion.

@NothingClever there has not been any study that correlates heart rate and decompression efficiency. If anything, being more active during the offgasing phase would likely accelerate offgasing efficiency due to increased blood flow. That said, since no one has ever proven it, it's not a variable worth bringing up.

 

[loosenit2]

same relative shift in buoyancy from full to empty. That shift is what determines the need for redundant buoyancy. Wetsuits compound the shift as a function of depth obviously, but for double AL80's you shouldn't need redundant buoyancy because of the tanks themselves. 12lbs is easy enough to kick up. We require students to bring a 10lb diving brick up from the bottom of the pool without fins and keep it at the surface which is not difficult. 12lbs with fins on is a cakewalk with the 130, and 14lbs for the double 80's is not significantly different. How long you can keep it up is one thing, but that's a different discussion.

appears we were having different discussions. I thought you were advocating using a single HP130 vice using AL80 doubles. After I re-read I appears that is not what you were advocating, you were just addressing single vs dual bladder.

 

[NothingClever]

12lbs with fins on is a cakewalk with the 130, and 14lbs for the double 80's is not significantly different. How long you can keep it up is one thing, but that's a different discussion.

@NothingClever there has not been any study that correlates heart rate and decompression efficiency. If anything, being more active during the offgasing phase would likely accelerate offgasing efficiency due to increased blood flow. That said, since no one has ever proven it, it's not a variable worth bringing up.

Although my PA has given me a superb bill of health and I run ultra-marathons for fun, perhaps Chase is in far better shape than me and can endure an elevated and sustained HR without incurring an increase in his RMV.

I haven’t rehearsed it but I think if I were to have to kick my way up to all my stops and kick to keep myself there to complete the obligation, I’d be at an exertion RMV rather than a rest RMV and gas-hogging like my deco tins are bottomless.

I acknowledge and concur with the benefit of being more active while decompressing. I’ve never subscribed to the “hover motionless” school of thought for deco stops. However, I think having to kick your whole rig is not what the active deco school of thought envisioned and I maintain that I think it would compromise one’s deco efficiency.

At the end of the day, I think we both agree the redundant bladder requirement can be satisfied through other means than a second bladder inside the wing’s shell.

 

[AustinV]

Since its your first doubles setup, regardless of what you decide as far as single vs dual bladder, try to see if you can borrow a few wings from friends and try different ones before purchasing anything. I am of shorter than average stature (5'7") and I originally bought an Oxycheq 55# wing for use with my doubles. On 100s and 119s it had a tendency to put me head down more than I like, on 130s it was ridiculous. I then went to a DSS Torus 49 and my problems were solved. It surprised me how much of a difference the wing made.

 

[JohnnyC]

Halcyon Evolve 60 for steel doubles. Halcyon Evolve 40 or Oxycheq 42lb Vertex for AL80's. Donut over horseshoe. Dive Rite doesn't even enter my equation because the alternatives are just better.

Wetsuits and steels are a stupid idea. Using a lift bag for redundancy is one of those things that everybody says, but nobody practices and it actually really really sucks. Like, you're probably gonna die level of suck. Maintaining neutral buoyancy for a decompression stop by using a bag with a single OPV on the top and needs to be inflated manually at the bottom with a second stage is not an easy thing to do during the best of times, let alone when it's in anger and you're already stressed because you've torched your wing, you have a very real deco obligation, you may be dealing with environmental factors, etc.

Relying on it as a backup to justify wearing a wetsuit with heavy steels is just a bad idea. Redundant bladders have a whole other set of issues. Ultimately, the safest, and most reasonable answer is to dive steels with a drysuit. Alternatively dive AL80's and accept that your dive times will be shorter. Either way, diving a balanced rig will make a difference when the pucker factor hits.

 

[tbone1004]

@NothingClever the comment was only based on your statement of "you’ll wreck the effectiveness of your deco stop with the HR you’ll be running". To me that means deco efficiency based on heart rate. Scubapro seems to think this may be relevant, but have never done any studies to prove it. Running out of gas because of workload is a very different story.

 

[NothingClever]

Using a lift bag for redundancy is one of those things that everybody says, but nobody practices and it actually really really sucks.

@JohnnyC - Have you settled on an SMB technique if you were to have to use one? I was shown a technique of folding the SMB and holding it front of me with both hands but it didn’t make a lick of sense to me. I think trying to manage a buoyant object at arm’s length would end with some sort of critical loss of control. I purged the technique as a viable solution.

I’m intending to sew a loop on the top of my DSMB so that I can clip it into a circle and put my left arm through it nesting it in my armpit for control. It’s the only technique I can think of that would allow me to easily control the OPV while keeping my hands relatively free for gas switches.

I haven’t had it sewn here on the Red Sea because I don’t think I’ll get the sewing job I want. However, I’m headed home to Florida for Christmas and the New Year and will get it done there so I can deliberately train on it.

I’m all about training for sucky conditions with sub-optimal or expedient solutions.

 

[divad]

the safest, and most reasonable answer is to dive steels with a drysuit. Alternatively dive AL80's and accept that your dive times will be shorter. Either way, diving a balanced rig will make a difference when the pucker factor hits.

Please..... Stop The Sanity!....................where is the sport in sanity?

 

[DeepSeaExplorer]

I forgot my wing once. I clipped my SMB to my crotch d-ring so it couldn’t get away from me and laid on top with the bag under my chest. Did the entire dive with double AL80s.

The hardest part was adding air to go deeper. Coming up is easy, just pull the dump string to vent.