Near Drowning at Ginnie Springs

[Gibbon]

Gen:
then for each diver to personally make a decision whether those risks, vs the rewards, are acceptable. This requires a certain level of skill, knowledge, and of course equipment.

Don't forget INTELLIGENCE.

When do you KNOW that you have enough skill/knowledge to properly asses the Risk vs. Rewards???

The truth is that MANY people are deluded into thinking that they know far more than they really do.
If you take a class for no reason other than gaining a "key" at the end of the class, then you will miss SOMETHING that you would have otherwise gained from said class. This goes for ALL classes. There is ALWAYS something new to learn, and thinking you know everything about a subject (even on a class based rudementary level) is pure delusion.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I understand the etiquette issues Mike. Hosing other people is not cool, no matter WHERE you are.

While I understand that some people are hair-brained, not everyone is.

Of course.

And on the topic of hair-brained divers, there are apparently some who are cave divers too. I've been following the debates in other places on intentional defacement and tampering.... all by, presumably, certified cave divers.

So.... once again we're back to "the class is neither necessary or sufficient."

I agree. There are issues in the cave community and unfortunately it's hard to keep up on everything living where I do. However notice who it is looking for who ever it is defacing the caves. It's not like kicking a reef in front of others who do likewise and either don't know or don't care.

With that said, I've already made up my mind in terms of what I intend to do about the "formal path", but its been almost entirely driven by the "key for lock" problem.

I'd just as soon find someone to dive with for the rest to the extent that its necessary, but that doesn't provide the key now, does it?

Indeed, if there were not a couple of trips I want to make over the next year that involve dealing with access controls, I would not have made the same decision.

I understand. At the same time if you get a good instructor you can get something out of it anyway.

 

[Hoppy]

Snipped
because every one except the old farts have degrees out the wazoo.

I have no degree and I'm not an old fart (i dont think) :sulkoff:

Seriously though, I'd like to ask what the iantd or tdi wreck pen courses teach. I am right am I ,in assuming that it is totally different to the PADI wreck course?

Anyone got a link ?

Sorry for hijacking.....

 

[MikeFerrara]

I have no degree and I'm not an old fart (i dont think) :sulkoff:

Seriously though, I'd like to ask what the iantd or tdi wreck pen courses teach. I am right am I ,in assuming that it is totally different to the PADI wreck course?

Anyone got a link ?

Sorry for hijacking.....

You can check out the IANTD wreck classes on their web site in the standards and procedures.

Both TDI and IANTD have technical level wreck classes classes that in some cases you may also be able to combine them with other technical training.

I can't really go into it much more since I haven't taken them.

the nice thing, in theory, about them is that if you want to dive Great Lakes wrecks, for example, you can do your training in Great Lakes wrecks. Traditionally wreck divers went to Florida to get cave trained in preperation and while lots of skills and techniques cross over the two environments are very different.

 

[Wijbrandus]

Well, here's my bit on the issue. I'm a rookie, so take it for what little it's worth.

Every one of us has to be responsible for ourselves. You can't go on a dive (or anything for that matter) and rely on someone else to save you. That means making your own risk assessment and turning the dive if it is going beyond your personal limits.

About ten years ago, I went on a white water rafting trip in West Virginia. On this one particular Class IV, the raft flipped, and I ended up caught under a rock beneath the surface by about three feet. If I had waited for rescue, I'd be dead now. Instead, I didn't panic, figured out where I was caught (the back of my life jacket) and worked the problem (slipped out of it). End of story was I survived by not panicking and thinking through the problem instead of waiting for someone to save me.

Cave diving is like that situation. You are going into a place where if it goes wrong, you can die. The whole concept scares the **** out of me, personally. I can't imagine I'll ever do cave diving because of that. However, someday I intend to take the classes simply because I want to learn the skills involved, even if I never will use them to penetrate a cave. I prefer structured training environments with a set of standards rather than "whatever works."

Come to think of it, that may be why the whole DIR philosophy appeals so much to me, but that's a whole nother issue.

 

[Wijbrandus]

Genesis,

This is exactly why I'll never dive caves. Nor will I likely ever penetrate wrecks. My interest in diving is purely about getting down to see the wrecks that are still worth seeing, and not penetrating them in the least.

Cave diving is a scary business. Wrecks can be more so. "The Last Dive" actually gave me nightmares, and I'm in my 30's. I'm leaving that stuff to people with more cajones than God gave me.

 

[Hoppy]

Thx for that Mike , just thinking about doing a wreck course and wondered if the PADI one was up to the job really?

I'll check it out

 

[Hoppy]

(The DIR philosophy kills both of you - "if one go, we both go." Do you choose to follow it, or do you intentionally break the team and live?)

You guys have a lot more knowledge of DIR than I even expect to get , but I've never come across the "if one goes, we both go" before. Where would I have missed this from?

The other question i have is would you only put markers on the line at T's etc or along the main line as well ? This would alleviate the problem you describe , or is that me being thick?

Gen questions from a non DIR diver, but genuinely interested in the whole approach.

Thx

 

[H2Andy]

christ, genesis... if someone is dumb enough to stick to the written rule when
they are clearly in a situation for which the rule was not meant, then they deserve
to fail to pass their genes on.

in that situation, after trying to orient my buddy, it's time to move on to save my life.

i don't think there is any DIR rule that requires that you die in order to prove how good you are at following the rules.

 

[MikeFerrara]

There are problems with the DIR philosophy.

It has benefits too, but ponder this scenario.

You are in a cave, 1500' back. Its a very low-flow cave, and pretty tight. There is one continuous main line, with no Ts, jumps or gaps within a reasonable distance (where there would be markers or other ways to know you came back the right way.) One of you has a minor problem and manages to kick it up - you now have chocolate milk and cannot see. You got nice and twisted around while you were managing the small CF you had, and during that time you had no visual references as you zero-zerod the vis.

You both get on the line and one of you puts a pin on it. Now, which way is "out"?

Your buddy insists that its one direction. You KNOW its the other. He refuses to go what you are certain is the correct way, and starts swimming the WRONG way.

You go after him, but you can't convince him to turn around. You reach your turn pressure and have not come across any other arrows, Ts, gaps or other line conditions that would clearly (to him; you already know!) identify you're going a way you did not come.

If you continue to follow him, you are certain that you will both die.

Now what?

(The DIR philosophy kills both of you - "if one go, we both go." Do you choose to follow it, or do you intentionally break the team and live?)

The solution to this situation is simple and there isn't any reason for any one to die. Leaving a buddy has nothing to do with DIR. I'm not DIR but I usually dive with my wife and/or son and I have no intention of leaving without either one.

There are some problems with this scenario.

First where do you find 1500 ft of continuous line with no markers? I've never seen such a thing.

If it's exploration line a guarantee that there will be survey stations.

If it's gold line there will be arrown and/or distance markers.

If such a thing did exist you would place markers.

How did they get off the line without knowing which side of it they were on?Oh well I guess it's possible.

In a low flow cave you're gas plan is more conservative than thirds.

In an unfamiliar cave your gas plan (as well as the rest of the plan) is also more conservative.

You also reference the cave. The line is a backup.

But lets say that somehow you did get off the line and not know which way was out. By definition you have more than 2/3 of your gas remaining. Remember the gas plan for a low flow unfamiliar cave. There is plenty of gas available to go the wrong way far enough to realize that you've never seen this cave before and still have plenty of gas to get out.

Absolute worst case...we use some of our reserve gas sorting things out(which is why we reserved plenty) And this is assuming worst case that it happened close to our turn pressure in the first place and there was lots of ongoing cave that looked exactly like the cave we saw on the way in. It also assumes there is such a thing as that much line with no markers. And remember our referencing of the cave and keeping track of our profile?

I don't see what this has to do with DIR at all. Are you saying that you'd leave some one when there's no need to because you're not DIR? This isn't an example of a DIR problem it's an example of what can happen to poorly trained cave divers.

In fact there are several DIR taught concepts that would reduce the chances of this ever happening. Not using a computer and noting depth, gas and time every 5 minutes for one right off the top of my head.

BTW, I think something similar happened to a newly cave certified couple in Peacock (I think it was). If I remember right they passed a jump without realizing it (very bad). Heading out they seen the jump and thought that they had gone the wrong way (because they hadn't passed a jump on the way in) and turned around and used up their gas trying to figure things out. Even this wouldn't have been fatal except for their inexperience.

Also check out the NSS manual they have a pretty good section on just this sort of problem.