Near Drowning at Ginnie Springs

[jviehe]

Yes, but I think were missing the point that even with the LAX rules there are very few accidents. Cave diving itself is way down on the list of injuries or fatalities for recreational sports. Can you even name any more accidents that have happend at the OW cavern sites? I know of this one, and one fatality last year at Ginnie due to shallow water blackout. Thats it. We are all acting like people are dropping like flies in the Ginnie cavern, when in fact thousands of OW divers go in it every year, and almost every single one makes it out.

 

[Walter]

"And I'm glad he did, so should you be."

That only scratches the surface of his abuses and it marks the end of constitutional rule in the US. No. I most certainly am not glad he murdered 620,000 people. I am not glad he imprisoned people (northerners) for years without even bringing charges against them. I am not glad he shut down opposition newspapers. I am not glad he used the army to prevent anyone with a democrat ballot (the ballots were color coded by party) from depositing his ballot in Maryland. I'm not glad he exiled opposition members of congress. I'm not glad he was a dictator. I'm not glad he is worshiped in the US, when he deserves a spot in history next to Hitler. The difference is, his war was successful.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I think we can find other recent examples of OW divers getting killed in cavers and caves.

A little over a year ago there was the two that died at...I forget which one but it's one where a lot of OW training goes on. The report I believe is on the IUCRR site and our own Wendy was there.

I don't understand why divers have to drop like flies for it to be considered a bad idea to dive in an overhead without the know how. What's the magic number? If an advertisment get's ONE diver who otherwise wouldn't have to go in there and they get hurt, It's too many.

 

[H2Andy]

They are the guys and gals walking around with a beer in their hand, writing themselves out of the same systems that the rest of us are forced to use (e.g. washington and state reps and senators), 40lbs or more overweight, smoking like a chimney or cranking out kids they have no ability or desire to raise themselves, without government "help" - or all of the above.

well, heck, how do they find time to dive?

 

[MikeFerrara]

Some might be marketing but it's not that streight foreward.

To get a job now days you need a degree. Especially the bigger companies don't care how good you are because they want some one who's good and has a degree. If they have to pick one it seems they prefer the degree to talant.

In theory, and it's a point that I argue, a dive cert guarantees that you have some minimum level of knowledge and experience. Without the card they have nothing except your word. Here also it seems that if they have to choose between skill and a card they prefer the card. It's easy and they don't have to defend their own decisions as they might if they just approved your experience or apparant skill.

With a card all they have to do is write down a number and blame some one else if you have a problem.

It also makes it easy for the insurance companies. They simply state the requirement to follow agency guidlines. It's a no-brainer for them and it's a defennsible position in court. Otherwise the insurance company would be at the mercy of the dive oporator or property owner or developing their own standards.


I know...if every one would take responsibility for their own actions we wouldn't have the liability issue. I can't see it ever happening. Insurance and lawyers are here to stay.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if this lady sued Ginnie because they not only let her in there but the said that experts have determined that the caver is safe for an OW diver with no caver training. IMO, they have wording in their advertising specifically designed to convince her that what her OW instructor (hopefully) told her about overhead environments somehow doesn't apply in this overhead environment.

 

[MikeFerrara]

That's simply not true. It is easier to get a job with the "sheepskin", but it is not necessary. Indeed, typically it is only a factor for your FIRST job.

In my career Mike, before I ran my own show, I was hired by several companies, from small concerns to a "Household name" in the Fortune 500, and I held (and still hold) no degree.

That never presented a problem.

It's possible but it's getting to the point that you're almost hosed without at least a masters degree.

Depending on what you do, of course, you're lucky to get some one to even look at your resume without enough sheep skin unless you know some one.

This is becomming more and more true all the time because every one except the old farts have degrees out the wazoo.

 

[AevnsGrandpa]

After reading through much of the posts on this long thread, I thought I would put my two cents in.

It sounded like most of those posting have many years and lots of experience and may or may not have been to Ginnie Springs themselves. I am very new, got OW last July and have only 9 dives under my belt, and the 9th being at Ginnie Springs in December right after Christmas.

The things I noticed were;

1. I had to calm myself mentally to go into that environment.
2. Once in there with the light on I was ok and my interest of looking around took my mind off the "cavern".
3. Being able to always see the large opening to the basin was a comfort.

I have not yet taken any cavern or cave class so I don't know what they teach you, but I had to keep reminding myself to watch out for the ceiling, both for my head and my tank. Since I was with a more experienced diver and I could see sunlight all the time I did enjoy the cavern very much.

How they come up with the decision of this being ok for OW divers I'm not sure but you have to be prepared for it regardless other wise it would be easy to freak out. I think it comes down to knowning your own comfort level in doing new things and being able to say NO even if the others with you still want to.

Everyone's comments on this have been intersting and given much food for thought.

Jeff

 

[H2Andy]

i think Genesis must get paid by the word...

Genesis, cut me in on it, man

 

[in_cavediver]

So, I'm qualified so long as I have a card, or have been diving caves since Mike Nelson was a kid?

Qualified, maybe, maybe not. If you have the card, it means you went through a class and found an instructor who thought enough of your skills to pass you. If you happen to be diving there based on long term expierence, you passed the darwin test. Either case, you will have the background to make an informed decision about if you are qualified.

what is the difference between having cave dived with your buddies before the training was available, and afterwards? If you've been diving them with your buddies, it make no difference when it was, or is.

The ONLY excuse for cave diving without a card is that they didn't exist yet when you started. In that case, you learned via the darwin method. (Not really encouraged these days)

Mike

 

[in_cavediver]

What gives you the right to make the decision for me on risk .vs. rewards when it comes to how I ride my motorcycle - with or without a helmet?

Be extremely careful how you answer that Pete - because your apparent belief that you have that right means that I can tell you that you may not eat that steak, or you will go to jail, under precisely the same argument you just used above.

The same applies here.

(BTW, I have my motorcycle license, and I wear a hat when I ride. But I would never presume to tell anyone ELSE how that computation of risk .vs. reward works for THEM. That's the difference, in a nutshell, between you and I.)

Helmets and motorcycles aren't a good analogy. Think Drivers license and driving. The powers that be, State and local governments, have decided that to drive on public roads, you need basic training and to be tested. IE a drivers license. They do this for EVERYONES safety who uses the road. Realize, a license is NOT required for private roads.

Cave diving is similar. For cave diving in public sites, they require the license (Card). Again, private sites may have different rules.

Personally, I don't care if you want crawl in there and die. I just don't want you placing me at risk when I am in there too. Think broken line and zero vis after you have entangled yourself. That's a direct risk to everyone else in the system. They have training on how to deal with it, but it doesn't guarentee they'll be successful.

Bottom line, if you want to cave dive, spend the money and get the proper training and the card.

Mike