Near Drowning at Ginnie Springs

[diverbrian]

Genesis brings up a good point...

They should require a license to operate a boat.

In this state, they DO require a driver's license or a boater's license (if the person is too young to have a driver's license) to operate a powerboat! And the tickets for violations (especially drunken driving of a boat) are points against your DRIVER'S license as well as the fines and other appropriate measures that are inflicted upon a driver on land.

 

[scubafool]

Yes, let's explore all angles. Since presumably the rescuer should know what he is doing & should know to dive the proper mix for the depth he is diving, shouldn't my wife be able to sue whoever sent him out there? Because if he were doing so, I might conceivably still be alive. I don't mean to be disageeable, Pete, but I truly feel that diving is a personal choice. No, I don't think that doing 1000 foot penetrations into a cave without any idea what you are doing is very smart, and I can promise you I won't be doing it, but if you can gain legal access to the cave & want to do so, that is your right. I sincerely hope that you WON'T do so, but I don't have the right to stop you.

 

[diverbrian]

Any complex question or situation has a short, simple answer.....
... that is nearly always wrong.

That I don't see where the situation is complex.

As I understand it, cave and cavern training came about because if it hadn't the land-owners were about ready to ban access to diving caves. This was due in large part to the carnage from untrained people (including OW Instructors) getting it into their heads that they could enter an overhead environment without written information that didn't exist at that time.

Much of it started with Sheck Exley's nice, concise book spelling out simple rules for going into overhead environments. Yes, I have read it. Prior to that, everything was passed down by "tribal knowledge" or not at all. Then it was "learn by your mistakes and those of the people around you". Much of the information that these instructors teach came from people dying. My aversion to deep air and determination to learn tri-mix before I take my diving deeper is due to having read The Last Dive and Fatal Descent.

Now, someone is saying that it is maybe even advisable to pass on this system (which is a vast improvement over the "old days") to go back to teaching yourself and hoping that the mistakes that you missed in technique don't get you killed! This sounds like a pretty simple situation to me.

It is apparent that someone has such a high opinion of themself that they think that they can teach themself anything that they need to know. That same arrogance has gotten many a diver killed.

I have seen little arrogance in the instructors and professionals in this thread even through the disagreements. I have seen plenty in one very vocal person who seems to think that there is no use for dive professionals.

I have the right to disagree with many posters on this board. I will freely use that right. They have the right to disagree with me. I don't begrudge those posters that. I WILL VEHEMENTLY argue with things that I consider to be unsafe.

Diving caves and caverns without having gone through a course dealing with overhead environments when the training is available is one of those things that I consider unsafe.

 

[Michael Schlink]

Gen. No I'm not offended, not at all ,in fact I enjoy your opinion. I just don't agree. I do find it difficult to "condense" my meaning for this forum. But I do respect your ideas, I don't always agree with them. I would probably agree with you on some points and not on others. I do believe that "c" cards have a purpose a good one, do I think their all encompassing and perfect not at all. The point I'm tryin to make is that a defenition of everyone doing what ever they feel like is chaos. I do think that you should be able to take your boat out and go dive MOSTLY where you want and go into wrecks BUT what happens when you get into trouble ,at that point when it gets other people involved such as C.G. then it's no longer just your problem. Genesis, your actually an exception to the norm. You take diving far more serious than most and so your abilities, and knowledge and understanding put you in a class by itself. BUT your not what's a typical diver. If we don't have a system of measurment and control will more divers start getting in trouble and if they do then will it start affecting the sport in general. Is it perfect no, but it does work most of the time. And I still think that if the law says you wear a helmet then you wear one. I think it should, but here in Texas they don't Oh well- I wear one, Please don't ever think that I'll get mad at your opinion I prefer someone like you to those that sit on the fence or are never heard from, heck you might change my opinion-I readily admit I'm still trying to figure things out everyday! PS-Don't smoke never have, 10lbs over weight depending on who you ask. but I can hop out my front door and run three miles in under 28 min. Don't drink enough to ever matter and am always the D.D. if we are out. Swim with and without fins at the club or in my own pool to stay in shape. Full cave for over 10 years, TDI inst., Trimix and I took a very comprehensive wreck course from a cave instructor about 16 years ago. Have I ever dove past my certification, that's an excellent question Honestly I would say yes but I can't remember when. Nor do I say that I'm perfect I just think we need more structure than you think. I also think that if there is rule and you break it there are penalties. I just get the impression that you don't want the rules or the resulting penalties-Am I wrong??

 

[Michael Schlink]

My wife says I have to come to bed now, the Oscars are over . It's been fun and educational, for those of you that disagree with me that's great. Nothing's ever going to change for better or worse with complacency. Everyone have a good night-M

 

[fixemup]

i'm not here to offend, but from what i've seen, each and every one of us is on our own underwater. i believe that PADI, NAUI and the like are concerned with safety, but from my perspective, certifications are more about liability and fees rather than proper training. i've seen more questionable actions(complacency?) during training by instructors than while diving with OW divers. just little things. i'm not trying to generalize instructors or demonize PADI, NAUI, instructors, or dive shops, just passing on what i've seen. maybe we should all think a little more about WHAT we're doing rather than how many certs we have. that incident could have happened to anyone. if we're lucky, we'll have a buddy that's paying attention in case something happens. be safe.

 

[diverbrian]

i'm not here to offend, but from what i've seen, each and every one of us is on our own underwater. i believe that PADI, NAUI and the like are concerned with safety, but from my perspective, certifications are more about liability and fees rather than proper training. i've seen more questionable actions(complacency?) during training by instructors than while diving with OW divers. just little things. i'm not trying to generalize instructors or demonize PADI, NAUI, instructors, or dive shops, just passing on what i've seen. maybe we should all think a little more about WHAT we're doing rather than how many certs we have. that incident could have happened to anyone. if we're lucky, we'll have a buddy that's paying attention in case something happens. be safe.

As I have said much the same thing many times.

For many "AOW"/recreational skills, I definitely agree. I am fully aware that most deep courses don't cover proper gas management for example. A person doesn't necessarily need a night/ limited vis cert to dive in those conditions with an experienced buddy in my view. I could go on about these things.

But, things like tri-mix, cavern, and cave require training well beyond recreational and the proof of the successful completion of that training is the card that is issued. And it is a different mindset when you dive with a decompression obligation than when you are doing a "recreational" dive.

Open water training should mean that you have been exposed to the information to make decisions on where to draw the lines in the world of recreational diving. That makes OW an important certification.

If it was about collecting cards, I could have a larger stack than I do. I have the minimum of cards issued for what I need as I agree that certifications don't mean that a diver knows everything. I am simply pointing out that certain certifications are important for certain things. Cave and cavern certifications definitely fall into this category.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I am aware of no other agency that has a formal wreck penetration class.

IANTD and TDI have technical wreck classes.

 

[in_cavediver]

Nope. You need the skills, and the knowledge. A class is one means to achieve this, but not the only means, and indeed, passing does not necessarily mean you are competent, just as it does not for any other level of dive training.
A lot cut

I won't try to disagree because it is all possible and true. The problem is, what you describe is not the norm. Prior to access restrictions, there were a LOT of fatalaties in caves. Once formal training came along. Once accident analysis has hit the mainstream and sites have been generaly 'gated' to allow only cave/cavern certified divers, the fatalities have dropped. (gated means only cave/cavern certified divers, and does not necessearly mean a physical gate on the cave)

I won't even try to argue the semantics over freedom. I'll just point to history where numerous florida caves were dynamited to prevent more deaths. Look at the proposed laws to forbid ANYONE from diving in caves. It took dedicated cave divers and formal agencies to prevent this.
Let's not go back in time and lets work to keep sites open. More deaths won't do this.

Mike

 

[MikeFerrara]

We can argue the value of formal cave training and a cave card all we want but I doubt we'll ever see police departments or parks departments allowing divers into the caves that they control access to without seeing a card.

In many cases there wouldn't be any access at all if it weren't for the efforts of organizations like the NSS-CDS and the NACD.

There are plenty of caves that aren't controled by any one and all you have to do is find them and climb in.

In either case, IMO, there's a difference between regulating what people choose to do and advertising that it's safe practice on a web page like we see with Ginnie springs.