Near Drowning at Ginnie Springs

[hantzu701]

The issue was brought up that a "non-cave" diver might have entered this site at their own peril. I also had "bought" into the hype of Ginnie being safe until I dove it. It is NOT safe for a non-qualified diver. I will not return until such time as I am qualified. I would NEVER lead a group of OW divers into this environment, unless I was certified to teach a cavern course. I agree with Mike's assessment %100. Most students could not differentiate between safe/non-safe. Heck, even the "experts" made a mistake here. Bringing students into an overhead environment without the pre-requisite land drills or proper equipment is gross negligence on any instructor's part as it gives students confidence to enter areas they are simply NOT ready to enter. As in Russian roullette, it's click, click, click, oops.

No one said she was a student.

Netdoc, what makes you the expert that tells you when someone can or cannot dive a site? The way I read Mike's statement was that divers should make their own mind based on clear information on the dive.

If an OW diver has been taught properly to begin with, s/he will know how to do a site assessment and determine what s/he is comfortable with. Your line of logic, eliminates other caverns such as the Blue Grotto and Devil's Den to OW certs.

As I posted on the TDS, I am glad that the Ginnie Springs is open to OW students. The cavern gives you a taste of what diving in a cave can be without the siltout conditions. You can see how easy it is to get disoriented and why you need to have perfect buoyancy, good finning technique and the right training before you start cave diving.

When I was at Ginnie Springs three weeks ago, a PADI DM (instructor license expired), a real cowboy, decided to enter one of the caves with his backup light (clear violation). I guess he couldn't resist. Although he signaled his two buddies and myself to follow him in, we declined.

If I had never been in the Ginnie Springs cavern - even with all the warnings, I might have been tempted to follow him in. But, I had seen just how dangerous going into a cave could be. I'm glad that his two buddies agreed with me. When I chewed him out later in private, he simply shrugged his shoulders and said 1) what's the big deal and 2) he wouldn't do it again.

Hantzu

 

[The Chairman]

Hantzu,

I do not claim to be an "expert"... but I see hypocrisy here. You are either qualified to dive in an overhead environment or you are not. I do not make the determination for this, cavern and cave instructors do. I believe that Devil's Den and Blue Grotto are other places that do not need OW divers in them. It sends the wrong message and I can't believe they don't require at least a cavern cert to get in there. There are quite a few areas in all three of these cave systems where a diver who does NOT know how to handle problems in an overhead environment can easily kill themselves. There is nothing worth dying for in them.

An OW student is TAUGHT to never ever get themselves into an overhead environment. It's even one of the questions on the NAUI exam I administer. They are not taught how to "judge" such an environment and so lack the skills to do so. Unfortunately, of all cave fatalities, most are OW instructors who think they "know" what they are doing. They exceed their training and die in the process. What a shame.

I have no idea what level this unfortunate diver was, and said so earlier. I was trying to get Genesis to STOP constantly misrepresenting me, which is impossible as he is hell bent on "discrediting" whatever I say. If I say white, he will surely come along and say I said grey or even black. He has his own agenda and is dedicated to hijacking just about any thread I am in to show us all just how "smart" he is. I really have no desire to communicate with such an intellectually dishonest individual.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Hantzu,

An OW student is TAUGHT to never ever get themselves into an overhead environment. It's even one of the questions on the NAUI exam I administer. They are not taught how to "judge" such an environment and so lack the skills to do so. Unfortunately, of all cave fatalities, most are OW instructors who think they "know" what they are doing. They exceed their training and die in the process. What a shame.

hantzu701's refernce to the DM's actions describe how it has often hapened

When I was at Ginnie Springs three weeks ago, a PADI DM (instructor license expired), a real cowboy, decided to enter one of the caves with his backup light (clear violation). I guess he couldn't resist. Although he signaled his two buddies and myself to follow him in, we declined.

The environment deceptively seems easy until the one light of a dive team goes out. That's why I love the video "A Deceptively Easy Way to Die"

Dives like Blue Grotto and Devils Den are another story. I was there as an OW diver and it crossed my mind while in the dark at 95 ft that I shouldn't be there.

Vortex is another one...If I remember right, once like eight diver died in there all at the same time. They ended up installing permenant lights.

To be clear though, I am in favor of good training that informs divers of the risk and no baby sitters from there on out.

You'll never have that in a private park. On the other hand, I think statements in dive magazines and web sites claiming that the cavern is safe for those who are untrained in cavern diving is dangerously misleading.

Who are the experts that they refer to? I really want to know. Do the NACD, NSS, IANTD, TDI, GUE standards say that cavern diving standards need to be followed everyplace except for there?

I call BS on their statement and I call BS on what Rodales had to say about the dive.

All that said I'm satisfied to let my own students make up their own mind after they've heard what I have to say.

 

[The Chairman]

Amen bro... amen! I concur on every single point.

 

[coberry7]

Right on Mike. I agree with you on this issue. Those spring caverns are dangerous. Who is saying that they are safe? Any overhead environment should be avoided unless you are qualified, and furthermore believe you are ready.

The lights at Vortex were new for me last year. A grate with a lock would be better. Safer.

Lights seem to just allow anyone to go one more step further without training or equipment.

Blue Grotto? Are you nuts? No OW diver should be in there. At minimum anyone who dives there should have deep experience.

Colin Berry

 

[Michael Schlink]

Mike and NC, I don't disagree with letting informed divers making their own decisions, however, as I've said it before some divers simply don't make good decisions and so yes I think we need to have rules that prevent or minimize their mistakes. Now let me ask a question and think about the answer. If your students consistently went against your better advice and instructions would you still be comfortable with letting them making their own decisions. I think, Mike ,that your teaching a very comprehensive course and consequently your students are better informed than some or most, it should make you more comfortable in your convictions. Do you think that all divers should be left to their own devices, so to speak? The other problem there is, unfortunatley, is every or most every time a diver does something "bad" it has a negative impact on us all. And as has been said before, for many years, if we don't police ourselves someone else will!! Take care.-M

 

[Gibbon]

about Blue Grotto: I took 2 of my OW check out dives at Blue Grotto.
I didn't like the overhead thing, but that was more due to the instructor not saying anything about it.
They DO show a video that discourages any diver not cavern/cave certified to go beond the 50' mark, which is NOT very far into the overhead.
40' was attainable just barely into overhead, and they have an airbell (place you can breath if problems with air) at about 25' (don't remember exactly).

I also took 3 of my checkout dives in Devil's Den. We never went into overhead there (at least not more than 5-10'), but there were SOOOO many divers there that it was hard to go anywhere.

The real problem with these places noted (Devil's Den, Blue Grotto, and Ginnie Springs) is that they are ALL privatly owned. There aren't any rules and regulations that say they HAVE to NOT allow you into overhead. They just make you sign a waiver, and take your $27

 

[ScubaTexan]

Just out of curiosity, does Ginnie Springs Cavern have one of the traditional DIVER BEWARE signs with the skull and crossbones that all overhead environments are supposed to have at the entrance?

 

[Diver Lori]

Devil's Ear and Eye do, but main Ginnie Ballroom does not.

 

[jviehe]

My point was more if it comes down to a choice of letting diver make up their own mind, or keeping everyone out, i choose less regulation. Does this mean some people will get hurt? Sure, but thats the choices those people make. As long as they dont take me with them, I dont care.