Near Drowning at Ginnie Springs

[H2Andy]

there is no sign at ginnie because the signs are usually found at the end of the cavern zone (to keep divers from going into the cave zone), and the cavern zone at Ginnie ends on a locked grate (so it's impossible to go further).

another highly dangerous cave is the one at King's Spring. I have seen many, many (what to me looked like) untrained and unprepared divers in there.

it scares me

 

[MikeFerrara]

Right on Mike. I agree with you on this issue. Those spring caverns are dangerous. Who is saying that they are safe?

The Ginnie web site says...

Ginnie cavern is among the handful of sites that experts consider sufficiently safe to allow exploration by divers who lack formal cavern or cave diver training....

A while ago Rodales did an article on Ginnie and said the same thing.

 

[in_cavediver]

Being qualified and ready, however, does not mean having a card. You can be qualfiied and ready without one, and you can be unqualified and not ready with one.

Just a few words. Unless you were diving caves with your buddies well before there was any formal training agencies, then you need the cave/cavern card. Period.

Cave divers go through a recognized cave (cavern) class from a reputable agency to learn skills that NO amount of OW expierence can give you. The card is important. A lot of dead OW divers have proven this with their blood. (including several OW instructors)

That said, there may be those with a card who shouldn't be there as well. They at least do have the training to fall back on to make an informed decision.

Mike

 

[scubasean]

Just a few words. Unless you were diving caves with your buddies well before there was any formal training agencies, then you need the cave/cavern card. Period.

So, I'm qualified so long as I have a card, or have been diving caves since Mike Nelson was a kid?

what is the difference between having cave dived with your buddies before the training was available, and afterwards? If you've been diving them with your buddies, it make no difference when it was, or is.

 

[The Chairman]

In_cavediver...

Your last post was extremely lucid and on-target. Short too, which most logical posts are.

In the name of "freedom" we have allowed bikers to ride with no helmets. Within the first year there was a %400 increase in fatalities, and close to a %1600 increase in cranial injuries state wide. I would imagine that abolishing the present system would result in the same increases occuring in cave diving.

But according to some, if they are being "limited" by the lack of a card, then the whole system stinks. It's a pretty ego-centric approach.

Get the training needed and park the ego at the door.

 

[Michael Schlink]

Gen. Not only do I have a motorcycle license, but I have a motorcycle as does my wife. We think any and every time we see someone riding without a helmet -"idiot". But do we have the right to MAKE them wear one. ABSOLUTLEY. As long as my tax dollars are spent picking up their pieces and putting them back together I sure do, especially so when the stats. weigh heavy in our favor. Now if the person riding without a helmet can prove financial responsibility and I have no financial stake in the matter then I don't care. BUT here in the good ole US we decided along time ago that we were going to let our leaders make decisions "for the good of the people". Not only do I believe that we have the right to tell people what to do, we have a responsibility. Helmets are no different than stop signs. "C' cards in diving is just like a drivers license. Driving and diving are not rights, the're privleges because they effect all of us in a particular community. I often hear people say "I can do whatever I want, it's a free country" unfortunately for them, they missed that day in school when they covered 'Govt." It's not a free country and you can't do whatever you want. That's why we have LAWS and rules, because there is an ilk of people that think they can do whatever they want. In the old days they called them "outlaws". Especially now when sue has become a household word and it's not a girl's name. You may think you can do whatever you want because of personal freedom but if impacts me one iota your now accountable to me. Do you know what really caused the civil war. It certainly wasn't slavery. It was because the south didn't like the way the vote went so they TRIED to pull up stakes. Simple as that. As long as the vote goes my way I'm in, if not I'm out. How stupid was that. We all have to live within the confines of rules or laws because of the people that don't think about the whole group but themselves.M

 

[diverbrian]

I am a motocycle endorsement as well. I sold the Harley for dive gear (can't carry doubles and stage bottles on a Harley), but I know about the "helmet debate". My personal view on that is simply if somebody wants to be an idiot... fine! The worst that happens is somebody scrapes the body off the pavement when it is over.

For caves... different story. SOMEBODY HAS TO RISK THEIR NECKS TO GO BACK INTO THAT CAVE AND RECOVER THE BODY BECAUSE SOMEONE WENT BACK INTO THAT CAVE WITHOUT THE PROPER TRAINING! Now, we are putting someone else's life at risk. I am of a similar mind about ice fisherman up here that can't seem to get it through their heads that the ice won't support their weight in the beginning and ending weeks of the season. When they go in, somebody has to pull their butts out! Yes, the rescuers are trained to do it. But, they wouldn't have to do it if somebody used common sense.

I have much of the equipment that I need for overhead diving. I am getting used to it, so when I eventually take a class, that will be one less thing that I have to worry about. Then, all that I will have to learn will be techniques instead of how to move in and rig the gear. Until then, guess who stays out of caverns and caves (not that there are any to dive where I live, the only overheads up here are the inside of wrecks)?

I happen to agree with Pete. Unless you complete a cave or cavern course, you don't belong in hard overhead environments. Period. End of story. The proof of the completion of that course to the owner of that property will be your card.

BTW, I know of an incident on a wreck up here. Two divers went inside a popular wreck that is "turned turtle" and got lost. One managed to get out through the outside hull and get a tank handed through to keep his buddy alive until a rescue crew comprised of experienced cave divers could go in and get the other diver through the passageways. I doubt that these two divers are very welcome on charters in that area anymore because of the risk that rescuers had to take.

 

[Walter]

"Do you know what really caused the civil war."

As a matter of fact I do. First, Lincoln supported a high tariff, which would unconstitutionally put the majority of the tax burden on the south. Next the tariff would be used for internal improvements in the north. Not only would the southern states pay the lion's share of taxes, they would get few of the benefits. As a result, they did what the colonies did in 1776, they seceded. Finally, Lincoln invented the concept that secession was illegal because he couldn't support his economic policies with the south gone. If secession is illegal, the US shouldn't exist at all. Even though secession was threatened several times by various sections of the county, most notably New England, no one prior to Lincoln ever suggested it was illegal. He illegally fought a war to implement his economic policies.

Back to the topic, which I believe is a near drowning at Ginnie Springs.

 

[scubafool]

M.S. I could not disagree with you more. As do you, when I see somebody on a motorbike sans helmet, I say to myself "IDIOT". However, the fact that they choose to be stupid & kill themselves can't kill me. The "sue" analogy just exemplifies the need for legal reform in our country, NOT your right to tell me what I can & cannot do with my life. My state has a seatbelt law which I can only support because wearing one MIGHT help you avoid an accident with me when things turn to crap on the road. It's Bike Week in my area of the country, & to be completely honest with you, I am quite annoyed with all of the noisy, non-helmet wearing folks on the road 200 feet from my front door. However, I feel I have more right to complain about the noise than I do complaining about their lack of helmets. Their (IMHO) refusal to take commonsense precautions does not directly affect me, but their insistence on making their presence known to everyone within a half mile does. Should I then be able to force them to change out the pipes on their bike? That to me would be a classic example of people who think more about themselves than the group. And that statement will probably bring down a whole load of crap on my head, but so be it. I'm sorry, but in my opinion, diving & driving are two totally seperate issues. While diving, the only people's lives affected by your desicions are yours, your families, & possibly your buddy's. When driving, your actions can affect the lives (and possibly even deaths) of many others. One Friday evening, I get drunk as Cooter Brown & do a dive in the local hole, during which I off myself. My wife is sad & poor, and has to raise our child by herself. And 20 or 30 people are inconvenienced by the ambulance on their way to pronounce me stupid & dead. Now consider the same situation on Interstate 4, relatively close to where I live. One Friday evening, I get drunker than Cooter Brown on my way home from work, and off myself by driving into oncoming traffic. My wife is sad & poor, and has to raise our child by herself. Very likely, I also killed several other people who have a family that would really like them around, plus I've tied up traffic for 5 hours while they clean up mine & my victims remains off of the road. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE.

 

[Michael Schlink]

And I'm glad he did, so should you be. However that 's not the point I was making. The Southerners wouldn't have succeded if Lincoln hadn't been elected, even though it was the Demo's that blew the election. letting Lincoln slip in under the wire. The point is simply if you only support anything when it's going your way you shouldn't be in the game at all-you're a coward. The debate shifted from the near drowning to what caused it which is presumably a diver doing something they shouldn't be doing and wether they had any right to be doing it all.-But nice perspective on the CW