NAUI Nitrox - Bummed

[BHB ScubaTroll]

Ok, I've gone away from this thread, and come back to it 3 times. I just feel compelled to say a couple of things.

First - JohnnyH, it is very decent of you to offer your time and energy to this issue.

Second - I can't see how any NAUI instructor would not know the age limits. But, I guess it is possible.

Third - When I wanted to have my son certified and he was too young, the dive shop suggested I get the tanks... it's not "on the sly". Any EAN certified diver can get EAN fills. What is done with them after leaving the LDS, is no one's concern.

Fourth - I have never been on a dive boat with me supplying tanks, where they have questioned certification for EAN.

Fifth - It IS the knowledge that matters. If you are confident (and it certainly shows that you are) that your son understands the use of EAN, then... have fun

Last - Enjoy your dives together. I know I do with my son... And, welcome to the world of diving DINQRs (Doing It Not Quite Right)...

Ok, more than a couple...

Chris -

I am sorry to hear about your experience. I am a NAUI instructor and it is unfortunate that you came away from your training with an (understandably) bad taste in your mouth.

I will contact NAUI and at least point out this thread to them. They place heavy emphasis on making sure they do a good job training us instructors as we are the NAUI members out in the field. They are also quite adamant that members (including instructors) understand the NAUI S & P, though obviously that knowledge fell through the cracks with this instructor.

I would also recommend that you ask that the LDS give you a voucher for your son to receive his EANx C-Card once he turns 15.

Feel free to send me a private message with your name and email and I'll forward that on to NAUI.

Best,
John

 

[ahoyChips]

Forgive me if there are any mistakes in my posting, and if I made any wrong assumptions.

First of all, I read the postings as carefully as I could, and of course, I could still have misunderstood the situation or whatnot, but why is everyone here blaming the instructor or the LDS?

ChrisEdwards himself hasn't said anything about informing the instructor of his son's age. Unless the unspoken assumption here is that he did inform the instructor???

For me, I think the instructor "assumed" that ChrisEdwards knew of the age requirement and didn't realize that he may not have, and may not have realized how old his son is.

As for the LDS not issuing the card till the very last minute when they should have got the age requirement earlier, maybe that was due to the fact that the paperwork wasn't submitted till the end of the course?

I don't see anything from ChrisEdwards saying anything to contradict all this. When I took my OW course, a lot of people submitted their paperwork last minute. As for a couple of teenagers taking the course, I saw their parents signing everything for them all the time.

So, since I'm not familiar with NAUI's paperwork, I am making the assumption that the paperwork did state the age requirement, and that ChrisEdwards didn't read the papers he signed for his son. Since obviously his son couldn't sign for himself at all, even if he was the legal age requirement. Even if the papers didn't state the age requirement, he should have checked it himself before taking the course with his son!

As for this statement that ChrisEdwards himself said in this thread:

"I think what I would like from NAUI would be a letter, first complimenting my Son on passing the course, but explaining their reasons for not issuing the card."

This is extremely unlikely! If you do contact them, they will just issue a form letter stating their requirements of the course. Anything more would be a severe liability on them. Though I'm not a lawyer, nor am I familiar with law that much, you placed them in a double binder by having your son taking a course that, god forbid, something happened, who would have gotten all the blame???? They would have, of course.

As for some people here saying that there is a good chance that ChrisEdwards can sue them, oh please. Why?? Why should he sue? He should have known the age requirements. He didn't say a word about the instructor not knowing it. He didn't say anything about the LDS till the paperwork, which, I'm assuming was submitted last minute.

I read all the standard paperwork that I had to sign for both my class and for the rentals. They disclaim responsibility in every sense of the word. How much that can hold up in the court, I have no clue since I'm not a practitioner of law, but even though they disclaim even responsibilities of negligence through their employees (one example of the standard form that I had to sign), you certainly can sue, and probably make it stick despite the forms that you signed. This is for serious situations that I'm talking about where something really does happen.


I just got irritated that everyone here assumed that it was either the instructor’s or LDS’s fault. And I got irritated with the fact that some people here just quickly said the word lawsuit. I’m a strong advocate of lawsuits when it is needed. Anything more, and no wonder you guys bash lawyers all the time. But when you need them, you don’t complain, do you? Sheesh. I know that ChrisEdwards said that he’s not going to sue, but why should he anyway? He knows that he has no case in the first place. And, I have a feeling that after my posting, he’ll most likely say that he did inform the instructor of his son’s age.

And for the record, I checked NAUI’s site for the enriched course specifically, it doesn’t list the age requirements for it all. Yet, if you look at the course after it, the Rescue Diver, it does list the required age of being 15.

So the scenario of the instructor not knowing the age requirement for this class specifically is most likely very true here. Especially if this is the first youngest kid that he had in this class (Nitrox) specifically. Remember, ChrisEdwards did say

“I think my Son may have been the youngest participant in this course so it may have caught them off guard.”


That doesn't mean that the instructor knew of his specific age!

Anyway, sorry for the long posting, I was trying to cover as many points as possible. And, sorry for the slightly hostile here. I am not trying to flame you or be rude. I’m just covering all the other scenarios. This posting really bothered me, and raised my hackles on how easily some of you were willing to throw around words like lawsuits, or bashing the LDS, or an offer from one of the members here to quickly get the instructor in trouble. Ok, I phased that wrongly, but it’s just putting it more baldly. That’s all.

 

[TeddyDiver]

ChrisEdwards himself hasn't said anything about informing the instructor of his son's age. Unless the unspoken assumption here is that he did inform the instructor???

For me, I think the instructor "assumed" that ChrisEdwards knew of the age requirement and didn't realize that he may not have, and may not have realized how old his son is.

1st rule
Instructors don't assume nothing, they check (and double check)
2nd rule
If an instructor makes assumption, it's a negative one (worstcasescenario)
3rd rule
If an instructor fails to follow rules 1 and 2, blaim agency, customer, lds, assistant and veto to rules 1 and 2.

 

[Felon_Monk]

ahoyChips:
youve got to be kidding right? You think its the dads fault? As a Professional diver it was instructors responsibility to ask the right questions and to inform them of the rules. The dad has the right to make an assumption because hes just learning about diving. For you to say its wrong for him to expect the LDS or Instructor to fill him in on information that he had no clue he even needed to know is pure bull. And most instructors i know always ask how old a kid is before they even start the class. If they look like they are under 18, its instructors job to check..

 

[Sideband]

Forgive me if there are any mistakes in my posting, and if I made any wrong assumptions.

First of all, I read the postings as carefully as I could, and of course, I could still have misunderstood the situation or whatnot, but why is everyone here blaming the instructor or the LDS?

Because they are the ones that made the mistake.

ChrisEdwards himself hasn't said anything about informing the instructor of his son's age. Unless the unspoken assumption here is that he did inform the instructor???

For me, I think the instructor "assumed" that ChrisEdwards knew of the age requirement and didn't realize that he may not have, and may not have realized how old his son is.

If he took a class then there was a student folder that included age and date of birth. If the instructor or shop assumed anything of the sort they were blatantly wrong. NAUI does not publicly publish its standards. Every instructor on the other hand is required to have a copy of the standards.

As for the LDS not issuing the card till the very last minute when they should have got the age requirement earlier, maybe that was due to the fact that the paperwork wasn't submitted till the end of the course?

Of course the paperwork wasn't submitted to NAUI until the end of class. That is when you know who passed and deserves a card and who didn't pass and and is not certified.

I don't see anything from ChrisEdwards saying anything to contradict all this. When I took my OW course, a lot of people submitted their paperwork last minute. As for a couple of teenagers taking the course, I saw their parents signing everything for them all the time.

Student paperwork is to be completed before training starts.

So, since I'm not familiar with NAUI's paperwork, I am making the assumption that the paperwork did state the age requirement, and that ChrisEdwards didn't read the papers he signed for his son. Since obviously his son couldn't sign for himself at all, even if he was the legal age requirement. Even if the papers didn't state the age requirement, he should have checked it himself before taking the course with his son!

A lot of assumptions and mostly wrong.

As for this statement that ChrisEdwards himself said in this thread:

"I think what I would like from NAUI would be a letter, first complimenting my Son on passing the course, but explaining their reasons for not issuing the card."

This is extremely unlikely! If you do contact them, they will just issue a form letter stating their requirements of the course. Anything more would be a severe liability on them. Though I'm not a lawyer, nor am I familiar with law that much, you placed them in a double binder by having your son taking a course that, god forbid, something happened, who would have gotten all the blame???? They would have, of course.

Suprise! Another subject you are admittedly ignorant of yet are making assumptions about.

As for some people here saying that there is a good chance that ChrisEdwards can sue them, oh please. Why?? Why should he sue? He should have known the age requirements. He didn't say a word about the instructor not knowing it. He didn't say anything about the LDS till the paperwork, which, I'm assuming was submitted last minute.

NAUI does not publically publish its standards so he could not know in advance and there you go assuming again.

I read all the standard paperwork that I had to sign for both my class and for the rentals. They disclaim responsibility in every sense of the word. How much that can hold up in the court, I have no clue since I'm not a practitioner of law, but even though they disclaim even responsibilities of negligence through their employees (one example of the standard form that I had to sign), you certainly can sue, and probably make it stick despite the forms that you signed. This is for serious situations that I'm talking about where something really does happen.

I missed the point of that paragraph but I am only assuming you had one.

I just got irritated that everyone here assumed that it was either the instructor’s or LDS’s fault. And I got irritated with the fact that some people here just quickly said the word lawsuit. I’m a strong advocate of lawsuits when it is needed. Anything more, and no wonder you guys bash lawyers all the time. But when you need them, you don’t complain, do you? Sheesh. I know that ChrisEdwards said that he’s not going to sue, but why should he anyway? He knows that he has no case in the first place. And, I have a feeling that after my posting, he’ll most likely say that he did inform the instructor of his son’s age.

It isn't an asumption of fault on our part. It is a fact.

And for the record, I checked NAUI’s site for the enriched course specifically, it doesn’t list the age requirements for it all. Yet, if you look at the course after it, the Rescue Diver, it does list the required age of being 15.

Disproving your assumption that the OP should have known the age requirement

So the scenario of the instructor not knowing the age requirement for this class specifically is most likely very true here.

No it isn't. See the part about student folders.

That doesn't mean that the instructor knew of his specific age!

Yes it does. Again, see the part about student folders.

Anyway, sorry for the long posting, I was trying to cover as many points as possible. And, sorry for the slightly hostile here. I am not trying to flame you or be rude. I’m just covering all the other scenarios. This posting really bothered me, and raised my hackles on how easily some of you were willing to throw around words like lawsuits, or bashing the LDS, or an offer from one of the members here to quickly get the instructor in trouble. Ok, I phased that wrongly, but it’s just putting it more baldly. That’s all.

The quality of an agency is dependent on the quality of its instructors. If the instructor falls short and/or fails to meet and verify standards then they need to be held accountable. I am NAUI certified and am currently working on a leadership course. The statements are mine but they do reflect NAUI leadership instruction.

Joe

PS welcome to the board.

 

[BuoyantC]

I can't believe this issue is even debatable. The paperwork, medical, waivers, and student folder is to be completed before any inwater work by every agency I've ever heard of. For a shop and/or instructor to deny a cert card to any student who passed the course requirements is just plain poor business at best (and a Standards violation in it's self). For the reason stated that the junior diver was below agency age standards can ONLY be concidered negligent. The LDS would be nothing but lucky if you didn't press the issue of a refund or delayed certification (although I think this would STILL be a Standards violation). If they even argued the point, there's more than one problem with this shop.

Dennis

 

[tracy_from_oz]

Honestly I would contact NAUI and tell them what has occurred.

Maybe when your son turns 15 years old they will issue him with a card free of charge as you have already paid for it.

Most importantly I would contact them as this is a violation of standards and they need to talk to the instructor about this. It is a pretty serious thing and I am not sure how an instructor can over look something like not knowing the age limits of students doing a particular course or not even asking/checking the age of younger students.

Also as JohnnyH has suggested contact him and let him talk to NAUI.

 

[Brewone0to]

Because they are the ones that made the mistake.

If he took a class then there was a student folder that included age and date of birth. If the instructor or shop assumed anything of the sort they were blatantly wrong. NAUI does not publicly publish its standards. Every instructor on the other hand is required to have a copy of the standards.

Of course the paperwork wasn't submitted to NAUI until the end of class. That is when you know who passed and deserves a card and who didn't pass and and is not certified.

Student paperwork is to be completed before training starts.

A lot of assumptions and mostly wrong.
Suprise! Another subject you are admittedly ignorant of yet are making assumptions about.
NAUI does not publically publish its standards so he could not know in advance and there you go assuming again.

I missed the point of that paragraph but I am only assuming you had one.
It isn't an asumption of fault on our part. It is a fact.
Disproving your assumption that the OP should have known the age requirement
No it isn't. See the part about student folders.


Yes it does. Again, see the part about student folders.

The quality of an agency is dependent on the quality of its instructors. If the instructor falls short and/or fails to meet and verify standards then they need to be held accountable. I am NAUI certified and am currently working on a leadership course. The statements are mine but they do reflect NAUI leadership instruction.

Joe

PS welcome to the board.

Bravo Sideband,
Just when I was ready to send this guy a flaming PM.
I came across your post,sating pretty much what I
was thinking about while reading his posting.

The only other thing running through my head
while reading this thread is that my understanding
It IS NOT advisable to expose youngsters to the compression
effects of the deeper dives. (NAUI required for AOW cert)
This causes serious bone developemental problems, and could
potentially cause health problems throughout his son's life.
Not really sure about the Nitrox diving effects on younger people,
but as with other age restricted scuba activities may be health related.

 

[Dive-aholic]

Has anyone noticed this is ahoyChips first post on the Board? Could this be a troll? Maybe it's even the instructor or LDS in question, which if it is says even more about the instructor and LDS. This isn't an agency issue. It's an instructor and LDS issue. It doesn't matter what agency you are associated with. They all have the same basic standards when it comes to paperwork - do the paperwork first to decrease the liability. Something was missed here and the instructor and LDS are at fault.

Chris, you state you won't be diving that often. So I'm guessing you probably won't be buying your own oxygen analyzer either. I'm not NAUI, but I think the standards are pretty much the same throughout - your son needs to analyze his own tanks. Yes, you're his father and need to make sure he's doing it right (so your rational for not issuing him the card is incorrect - he's still a minor at 15), but the course should have taught that each diver analyzes his/her own mix. How do you plan on having your son do this if you pick up the tanks? Also, if you plan on doing a lot of shallow dives, then why take the nitrox course? There's not much benefit to paying the extra money for nitrox for shallow dives. The reason I bring all this up is because too many divers let their LDS dictate what they do without question. Don't let this mistake go without being addressed. If they don't know a standard as simple as age requirements (one of the most important IMO), then what else don't they know?

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Gotta agree with Rob and others on this one. One of the things that has been drilled into me as a DM candidate is that standards are standards and there is no excuse for not knowing them before taking on a student for a particular course. Especially when dealing with kids. The student file folder that is supposed to be kept and filled out is kept for a reason. It's so that when taking a new course the instructor can look and be sure the prereqs have been done, medical issues addressed, age requirements met, etc. There is no excuse for not knowing that he was too young. No money should have been accepted for him. Recommended depths were exceeded. There are violations here that need to be addressed. No one needs to be sued, but the shop needs to be made aware that this is not acceptable. The agency needs to be informed that things are occurring that make it look bad. And I strongly agree that just issuing a card when the boy reaches 15 without retaking the course is a bad idea and sets a dangerous precedent. It's like allowing one to do a deep specialty then two years later giving a card when the diver has not gone below 40 ft or perhaps even dove during that interval. And yes if you do not have your own analyzer and just get tanks for him without him doing what he should(analyzing his own gas) it is setting in motion a habit of allowing others to do what he should be doing. Things like this lead to the scenarios where someone gets hurt because "somebody else always did that for me". Like divers who can't, or even worse won't, set up their own gear.