Naive - Difference between DIR & hogarthian?
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bedmund
Contributor
BigboyDan:
First off, I'm not DIR. But I know some DIR divers who are awesome divers and I know non-DIR divers who are also awesome divers. Also, the DIR divers I know are not the equivalent of "Bible-thumpers". They say "I think this is the best way, but that way may work for you." I know the DIR "thumpers" are out there and if they think I'm a poor diver, I couldn't care less. I don't dive for them. I also couldn't care less if someone who is not DIR thinks I'm a poor diver. However, if someone approaches me and says "hey I noticed such and such and have you ever considered doing it this way?" I would listen. I may not change it but I would listen - and if it turns out to be better for me then I would change it. It's all in the approach.
And Dan, I'm not sure your approach is the best one right now. Just a suggestion.
-Bill
Whether or not a GUE card would be *accepted* isn't really an issue... at least for me. Why would I need to show a card to someone much less need them to accept it?
mweitz
Contributor
ROFL, this is some funny uh, ... stuff.
I'm going to comment on a few comments, but not quote them cause I'm too lazy (I know, that isn't the Doing It Right).
Cornfed, my class was very positive. I didn't show much promise in the water, but the instructors were positive with their comments, and honest with their evaluations. Sunshine up your ***** isn't going to make you a better diver. I do suspect that GUE has become a little more PC over the years though. I've also seen some local DIR divers posting about going out and "practicing" skills and a GUE instructor posting back that was great, but that they needed to make sure that they incorporated fun dives into their practice. FUN was really the focus of DIR-F both times I took it. I have experience with 2 GUE instructors, and 5 GUE Instructor candidates. All were fun and positive.
BigboyDan, someday when you are bored, check out this link and meander around Andrew's schedule, then come back and tell us about how they have never heard about DIR outside of Florida:
http://ical.mac.com/WebObjects/iCal.woa/wa/default?d=1&u=andrewg5thd&v=1&y=2005&m=1&n=5thd-x.ics. Oh, how about those EKPP guys. Wonder if they have ever heard of GUE or DIR? Where are they again? Oh, yeah, France?http://www.ekpp.org
I also dont understand how your frustration with your PADI card has anything to do with GUE or DIR. I would suspect that people don't have trouble getting their 21/35 (or whatever) fills with their Tech 2 cards
. On the other hand I'm not going to whip out my DIR-F card for a boat dive in Cozumel. Well, actually, a DIR-F card is totally useless, except if you want to take any other course from GUE.
This diving thing is funny. In EVERY sport you can take lessons and if you want to excel you practice. If you are even more serious, you may lift weights, do sport specific exercises and or eat a more specialized diet. I just don't get why people are so against DIR because it encourages those things. In diving it is even more important when you are relying on your buddy that they are squared away. If your golf partner shoots a 103 you sure as heck arent going to die!
Mark
I'm going to comment on a few comments, but not quote them cause I'm too lazy (I know, that isn't the Doing It Right).
Cornfed, my class was very positive. I didn't show much promise in the water, but the instructors were positive with their comments, and honest with their evaluations. Sunshine up your ***** isn't going to make you a better diver. I do suspect that GUE has become a little more PC over the years though. I've also seen some local DIR divers posting about going out and "practicing" skills and a GUE instructor posting back that was great, but that they needed to make sure that they incorporated fun dives into their practice. FUN was really the focus of DIR-F both times I took it. I have experience with 2 GUE instructors, and 5 GUE Instructor candidates. All were fun and positive.
BigboyDan, someday when you are bored, check out this link and meander around Andrew's schedule, then come back and tell us about how they have never heard about DIR outside of Florida:
http://ical.mac.com/WebObjects/iCal.woa/wa/default?d=1&u=andrewg5thd&v=1&y=2005&m=1&n=5thd-x.ics. Oh, how about those EKPP guys. Wonder if they have ever heard of GUE or DIR? Where are they again? Oh, yeah, France?http://www.ekpp.org
I also dont understand how your frustration with your PADI card has anything to do with GUE or DIR. I would suspect that people don't have trouble getting their 21/35 (or whatever) fills with their Tech 2 cards
. On the other hand I'm not going to whip out my DIR-F card for a boat dive in Cozumel. Well, actually, a DIR-F card is totally useless, except if you want to take any other course from GUE.This diving thing is funny. In EVERY sport you can take lessons and if you want to excel you practice. If you are even more serious, you may lift weights, do sport specific exercises and or eat a more specialized diet. I just don't get why people are so against DIR because it encourages those things. In diving it is even more important when you are relying on your buddy that they are squared away. If your golf partner shoots a 103 you sure as heck arent going to die!
Mark
BigboyDan
Guest
From the GUE mission statement,
Quote:
"Global Underwater Explorers is prepared to redefine the nature of aquatic activity in three specific areas: education, research and exploration."
As of today GUE is not capable of redefining anything concerning diving.
--------------------------
Quote continued:
"GUE's educational programs have been designed for the discriminating diver interested in obtaining the best possible instruction. Toward this goal all GUE educational programs combine comprehensive dive instruction, extensive task-oriented educational materials and detailed environmental literature. The Global Underwater Explorers educational program is structured to create the world's most experienced and proficient divers. To accomplish this goal GUE will select only the most dedicated and experienced individuals to conduct their training."
This whole paragraph reeks: "the best posssible instruction"? and, "... the world's most experienced and proficient divers. To accomplish this goal GUE will select only the most dedicated and experienced individuals to conduct their training."
Pu-leeeeeze. Bravado, nothing more.
-----------------
Quote continued:
"GUE is committed to bringing together an array of professional talents solicited for their specific abilities in exploration, the sciences and conservation resulting in the most comprehensive educational materials available anywhere in the world."
"...most comprehensive educational materials available anywhere in the world."
Really? In the WORLD?!? Tell it to the French Navy.
------------------------
Quote continued:
"GUE membership represents a collection of the world's most prolific explorers holding nearly all of the world's top cave diving records."
"...a collection of the world's most prolific explorers..." BWHAHAHA!! Tell it to the National Geographic.
----------------------
Quote continues:
"In sum, Global Underwater Explorers is a complete resource for the underwater enthusiast with a specific interest in seeing the underwater world explored, studied, protected and shared. By redefining the link between the underwater enthusiast and the scientific community GUE will be able initiate a unique age in underwater exploration. The evolving future of diving will allow thousands of people to combine their efforts in the pursuit of underwater recreation, education, research and exploration. The future of the underwater world is replete with unique opportunities; regardless of one's specific area of interest, Global Underwater Explorers has created a nexus to bring together the best of sport, technical and research diving in the service of environmental protection and understanding.
"... Global Underwater Explorers is a complete resource...''
No it's not.
..."By redefining the link between the underwater enthusiast and the scientific community GUE will be able initiate a unique age in underwater exploration..."
Uh-huh.
--------------------
From the "Become a Member" page,
Quote:
"Generally speaking, diving has undergone three primary evolutions: the initiation of recreational diving, the era of demanding almost "military style" training, and the resulting "anyone can dive" backlash. The advent and expansion of early public training procedures tended to be fairly rigorous with divers exposed to an array of challenging exercises. Later, organizations like PADI begin to develop truly viable commercial ventures with the new idea that anyone should be able to dive. With few exceptions that mindset has dominated diver training to the present day. This "anyone can dive mentality" has indeed allowed for tremendous growth in the diving industry but not without its negative repercussions. Indeed, if anyone can dive then certainly nearly anyone can teach. This mentality has led organizations to offer "guaranteed" instructor certifications; further challenging the number of qualified diving leaders and encouraging relaxed training guidelines and devalued instruction."
These statements are false. PADI is being libeled with this: ..."encouraging relaxed training guidelines and devalued instruction." And GUE gets to decide who dives?
----------------------------
Quote continued:
"To be sure, diving education is big business but it is time for that business to put the safety of divers and the reputation of the community ahead of profit. For years we have watched as less came to be expected of divers from instructors that were increasingly unprepared. It takes time to make a good diver and even more time to train a competent instructor. Those are realities that no amount of marketing finesse can eliminate. Many excuses, rationalizations, and debates are had over the state of diving instruction but at a time when instructor trainers are becoming a dime a dozen and certifications seem to grow increasingly worthless a serious change is in order. Many instructors and students are prepared to do whatever it takes to gain proficiency but the industry has cheated them by fostering the belief that short courses and streamlined training are to their benefit. It is time for the agencies to put a stop to the degradation of diving and become a voice for diver proficiency, safety, and responsibility."
Opinions not facts. More libel.
---------------------------
Quote continues:
"Our pledge is to offer divers and educators a new alternative- one that is not afraid to take a stand for safety over financial gain and quality over quantity. Global Underwater Explorers is uniquely situated to redefine the nature of aquatic education. With extensive educational, research, exploration, and conservation experience our organization is prepared to initiate a truly comprehensive educational institution.
GUE courses are free? Halcyon gives its equipment away?
-------------------------
The above quotes are from the GUE website and are written by Jarrod Jablonski.
GUE does not offer better training than any other agency, DIR divers are not better divers than those who are not DIR trained.
Fools.
Quote:
"Global Underwater Explorers is prepared to redefine the nature of aquatic activity in three specific areas: education, research and exploration."
As of today GUE is not capable of redefining anything concerning diving.
--------------------------
Quote continued:
"GUE's educational programs have been designed for the discriminating diver interested in obtaining the best possible instruction. Toward this goal all GUE educational programs combine comprehensive dive instruction, extensive task-oriented educational materials and detailed environmental literature. The Global Underwater Explorers educational program is structured to create the world's most experienced and proficient divers. To accomplish this goal GUE will select only the most dedicated and experienced individuals to conduct their training."
This whole paragraph reeks: "the best posssible instruction"? and, "... the world's most experienced and proficient divers. To accomplish this goal GUE will select only the most dedicated and experienced individuals to conduct their training."
Pu-leeeeeze. Bravado, nothing more.
-----------------
Quote continued:
"GUE is committed to bringing together an array of professional talents solicited for their specific abilities in exploration, the sciences and conservation resulting in the most comprehensive educational materials available anywhere in the world."
"...most comprehensive educational materials available anywhere in the world."
Really? In the WORLD?!? Tell it to the French Navy.
------------------------
Quote continued:
"GUE membership represents a collection of the world's most prolific explorers holding nearly all of the world's top cave diving records."
"...a collection of the world's most prolific explorers..." BWHAHAHA!! Tell it to the National Geographic.
----------------------
Quote continues:
"In sum, Global Underwater Explorers is a complete resource for the underwater enthusiast with a specific interest in seeing the underwater world explored, studied, protected and shared. By redefining the link between the underwater enthusiast and the scientific community GUE will be able initiate a unique age in underwater exploration. The evolving future of diving will allow thousands of people to combine their efforts in the pursuit of underwater recreation, education, research and exploration. The future of the underwater world is replete with unique opportunities; regardless of one's specific area of interest, Global Underwater Explorers has created a nexus to bring together the best of sport, technical and research diving in the service of environmental protection and understanding.
"... Global Underwater Explorers is a complete resource...''
No it's not.
..."By redefining the link between the underwater enthusiast and the scientific community GUE will be able initiate a unique age in underwater exploration..."
Uh-huh.
--------------------
From the "Become a Member" page,
Quote:
"Generally speaking, diving has undergone three primary evolutions: the initiation of recreational diving, the era of demanding almost "military style" training, and the resulting "anyone can dive" backlash. The advent and expansion of early public training procedures tended to be fairly rigorous with divers exposed to an array of challenging exercises. Later, organizations like PADI begin to develop truly viable commercial ventures with the new idea that anyone should be able to dive. With few exceptions that mindset has dominated diver training to the present day. This "anyone can dive mentality" has indeed allowed for tremendous growth in the diving industry but not without its negative repercussions. Indeed, if anyone can dive then certainly nearly anyone can teach. This mentality has led organizations to offer "guaranteed" instructor certifications; further challenging the number of qualified diving leaders and encouraging relaxed training guidelines and devalued instruction."
These statements are false. PADI is being libeled with this: ..."encouraging relaxed training guidelines and devalued instruction." And GUE gets to decide who dives?
----------------------------
Quote continued:
"To be sure, diving education is big business but it is time for that business to put the safety of divers and the reputation of the community ahead of profit. For years we have watched as less came to be expected of divers from instructors that were increasingly unprepared. It takes time to make a good diver and even more time to train a competent instructor. Those are realities that no amount of marketing finesse can eliminate. Many excuses, rationalizations, and debates are had over the state of diving instruction but at a time when instructor trainers are becoming a dime a dozen and certifications seem to grow increasingly worthless a serious change is in order. Many instructors and students are prepared to do whatever it takes to gain proficiency but the industry has cheated them by fostering the belief that short courses and streamlined training are to their benefit. It is time for the agencies to put a stop to the degradation of diving and become a voice for diver proficiency, safety, and responsibility."
Opinions not facts. More libel.
---------------------------
Quote continues:
"Our pledge is to offer divers and educators a new alternative- one that is not afraid to take a stand for safety over financial gain and quality over quantity. Global Underwater Explorers is uniquely situated to redefine the nature of aquatic education. With extensive educational, research, exploration, and conservation experience our organization is prepared to initiate a truly comprehensive educational institution.
GUE courses are free? Halcyon gives its equipment away?
-------------------------
The above quotes are from the GUE website and are written by Jarrod Jablonski.
GUE does not offer better training than any other agency, DIR divers are not better divers than those who are not DIR trained.
Fools.
Dan Dan Dan Dan Dan.... it just isn't proper to go calling folks fools.... why it is downright... foolish.BigboyDan:
I dunno, Dan - nobody that's in business these days is immune to barfing up some of the the usual marketing blather, and while your examples certainly cite some blather, is it really that unusual?
I mean, if you're in business, y'aint gonna advertize yourself as 'almost the best', are you?
I mean, if you're in business, y'aint gonna advertize yourself as 'almost the best', are you?
BigboyDan
Guest
Never said that I wasn't foolish - just not in diving. I don't like being lied to Pug, anytime anywhere. This whole DIR thing is a cancer... cave diving skill-sets are great, just leave the religious part out of it.
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