My Venture into GUE - Another view

[GShockey]

While I do not have an opinion on how to get everyone to respond, I will recommend you look at how the feedback is requested.

The feedback form seems canted to a positive result. One rated from 1 to 5, strongly disagree to strongly agree, for questions along the line of

- The standard was clear (yes, of course)
- The instructors maintained the GUE standard (yes, of course)
- You were held to high standards (yes, of course)
- Skills demonstrated according to standard (yes, of course)

I believe the above are asked to insure standards . . . okay, got it.

Now, sticking to the 1 - 5, how about questions like

- My instructors explained thoroughly how to meet the standard
- My instructors' feedback made me understand how to fix what was wrong
- Class gave a clear understanding of <insert section here - Nitrox, rescue, etc)
- Gear adjustments were understandable and helpful

Then there was one box for narrative. How about one box for each of the areas of the class, such as "training environment", "classroom environment", "instructor(s)", and "overall"

If I had printed the eval, I could give better feedback. This is from memory, sorry.

Thank you for the feedback. This is all useful stuff.

I believe our current intent is that the narrative box is intended for any comments that you believe were not addressed in the questions. (I recall sending 1 1/2 pages worth of comments on one of my courses). This would be the opportunity for the student to include pretty much anything else they feel was useful. Some students take advantage of this opportunity and some do not. For many that don't bother to submit a QA, I don't know if adding a series of questions that could be answered in the narrative box is going to help that but I will make note of your suggestions and forward them up the line. Thank you for taking the time to respond. Feel free to contact me at my GUE email address if you have anything else. gs@gue.com. Thanks again.

Best,

Guy

 

[GShockey]

Hummm,

When I buy something I'm frequently propositioned to complete a "survey" regarding the goods and services I purchased.

I usually decline.

I would view any effort to compel me to participate unfavorably.

When do I participate? When I feel strongly about the organization and believe they are sincere in trying to improve their offerings and are actually open to criticism.

Tobin

Thanks Tobin. I expect your position mirrors that of many, as it does my own.

Guy

 

[Ben_ca]

Simple, charge $50 more for any course and refund when QA sheet is completed.

So basically you want to impose a fine for not completing a survey?

 

[Lobzilla]

deleted, off-topic

 

[Travis B]

thank you for sharing your story,, i have heard too much of these stories from divers at sites that i have go to know,and that is one of the reasons i have never had any interest in diving with GUE, i know im a pretty solid diver and dive with gue's that have both passed and failed thier fundys and can honestly say i hold my own,i know i still have lots to learn but i have no intentions on learning it with gue. stories like this help with my decision making.there are several other more recognized organizations that have tech training to offer and i am now thanx to a recent dive training trip am NACD certified but like i said still have lots more to learn.

 

[Lobzilla]

thank you for sharing your story,, i have heard too much of these stories from divers at sites that i have go to know,and that is one of the reasons i have never had any interest in diving with GUE, i know im a pretty solid diver and dive with gue's that have both passed and failed thier fundys and can honestly say i hold my own,i know i still have lots to learn but i have no intentions on learning it with gue. stories like this help with my decision making.there are several other more recognized organizations that have tech training to offer and i am now thanx to a recent dive training trip am NACD certified but like i said still have lots more to learn.

I hope you read the entire thread since there were quite different but equally credible accounts given of what the Fundies were and are to different instructors and students. Plus, judging GUE by what some Fundie students have to say is like judging a sports franchise by the ramblings of their Little League.

 

[HenrikBP]

Plus, judging GUE by what some Fundie students have to say is like judging a sports franchise by the ramblings of their Little League.

That's pretty darn funny right there

Henrik

 

[Mr Carcharodon]

How do you suggest we get input from people who have no requirement to provide it? Why did you or your group or the other group not provide feedback via the QA form?

Best,

Guy

Guy,

Thanks for asking. Asking in and of itself is enormously hopeful.

The best way for GUE to get more inputs is to ask for them. I do not know what fraction of the total student population gets a provisional and never shows up for an evaluation, but it was everyone in at least two of the classes discussed in this thread. GUE never asked for inputs from any of these people. It appears they have not even thought to ask for them. So how would they know if the class worked well or not? GUE has the contact information for every student. E-mailing out a survey six months after the class would be pretty simple and provide an opportunity for feedback. Actually it would be really good to know quantitatively what the success rate is and how that varies from region to region and instructor to instructor. If that has ever been done I have not heard it discussed.

Why would people never show up for an evaluation? Well the standards were well represented the first time around but how to get there was not. If you are pretty sure you are not going to succeed, and you did not get a lot constructive feedback the first time around why go back? Really I hear lots of positive reviews here. I am sure it does work sometimes. Why not find out where it is not working and do something about it?

 

[TSandM]

You know, before I took Fundamentals, I read every single report of the class that I could find on the internet. I can't remember a single report that didn't say the class was hard. SeaJay's report said he thought about giving up diving, and thought about telling his instructor to go pound sand. If you go through and read Rick Inman's and my report, it's told in a light and humorous vein, but I think it comes through clearly that the class was hard and neither of us was terribly happy with ourselves at the end of it. And no, I did not pass; I got my provisional because I begged for it, and ticked off a list of resources I had that I thought would help me get to passing standard before the six month period. (As it turned out, I was unable to make use of any of them, but found unexpected help.)

Fundies shouldn't be that hard, but if it is the first time that you have had any diving instruction that has held you to any kind of standard, it's a pretty rude shock. Luckily, knowing where my diving skill was, and knowing what the class was, I was prepared to struggle and fail (and actually, in some things, did better than I expected!) and prepared to see things on the video that would make me unhappy. I knew it was the beginning of a journey.

It is VERY difficult for people who travel, as this class did, to be able to have the same kind of fatalistic attitude toward the class. A lot of people experience Fundies as a gatekeeper, and are unhappy that, without a pass, they will not be able to move forward to the Tech 1 or Cave 1 class they want to do. But the bottom line is that, if you can pass Fundies, you are set up well to have a much better time in a more demanding and much more expensive class.

If you don't want to go on with the agency, then the class ought to be pretty stress-free. You have a chance to learn, a chance to practice, and no pressure to reach the bar except on your own time schedule.

 

[GShockey]

Guy,

Thanks for asking. Asking in and of itself is enormously hopeful.

The best way for GUE to get more inputs is to ask for them. I do not know what fraction of the total student population gets a provisional and never shows up for an evaluation, but it was everyone in at least two of the classes discussed in this thread. GUE never asked for inputs from any of these people. It appears they have not even thought to ask for them. So how would they know if the class worked well or not? GUE has the contact information for every student. E-mailing out a survey six months after the class would be pretty simple and provide an opportunity for feedback. Actually it would be really good to know quantitatively what the success rate is and how that varies from region to region and instructor to instructor. If that has ever been done I have not heard it discussed.

Why would people never show up for an evaluation? Well the standards were well represented the first time around but how to get there was not. If you are pretty sure you are not going to succeed, and you did not get a lot constructive feedback the first time around why go back? Really I hear lots of positive reviews here. I am sure it does work sometimes. Why not find out where it is not working and do something about it?

Hello again,

You raise an interesting point. At the very beginning of my classes I tell all my students that they have to complete the QA form at the end of the class, regardless of whether they pass, fail, or receive a provisional pass. I do "hound" my students to do this and so far, every single student has completed the QA, albeit some with a few reminder emails.... I believe the statistics you speak about are monitored at HQ but their analysis is done at levels considerably above my pay grade... It is all done with the intention of improving our instructors and our curriculum. We need feedback both positive AND negative to improve ourselves. This is an ongoing process and continues on various levels.

I will put forward the idea of subsequently emailing students who do not complete the QA process. Currently, every instructor is able to see if a student has or has not completed their QA form. I don't actually know what happens if the list of those who do not complete the form starts to build up as I haven't had that happen. I will enquire further.

Thank you for taking the time to put these points down.

Best,

Guy Shockey