My Venture into GUE - Another view

[GShockey]

There's nothing stopping people from approaching fundies as it exists now with this mindset. You can get a rec or even a provisional, go away and practice, and then come back a few months later for an assessment. Your instructor should give you direction and a roadmap on how to improve. Then you came back and see how you have got on. If it's me, they don't even pay for the reassessment so they get 4 days + another couple of dives.

This structure is exactly what we have now. Unfortunately, people get hung up on getting a pass at the end of the 4 day period.

Thanks Gareth,

This is exactly how I approach my classes as well and last year 3 students did this and all received a pass after the reevaluation. I suspect there are several others who will be doing this in 2011 also. The door is always open.....

Guy

 

[Lobzilla]

First off, thank you for your comments in the latter part of your post, but I would still like to address the first paragraph I quoted above:

How do you suggest we get input from people who have no requirement to provide it? Why did you or your group or the other group not provide feedback via the QA form? You have/had the opportunity to help correct the very things you feel need correcting but you chose not to. How do you suggest we make it mandatory for feedback? This is a sincere question and not intended as sarcasm, and as one of the only two GUE instructors sitting on the Quality Assurance board, I can assure you that if you have a good idea for this, I will forward it to the Chairman and the entire QA board will examine your idea closely.

Best,

Guy

Simple, charge $50 more for any course and refund when QA sheet is completed.

 

[GShockey]

Guy,


My suggestions for making the class better would include (this is kind of the evaluation I never made):

Do the first two dives in confined water, or at least calm shallow water so surfacing is easy and immediate feedback can be offered. We did these dives in 30 fsw with surge and current which diminished the chance for rapid feedback. Also we made a number of minor gear configuration changes just prior to the dives. Reconfiguring gear and then checking it out in surge and current is not ideal.

Be specific. By in large I already know if I am screwing up I don’t need a global comment like that, but I do need to be told specifically how to address issues.

A single demonstration is not enough. That is pretty much what we got and then were told to go forth and practice. Break each skill up into bits, write it down and hand it out. My team was disagreeing about the minutia of helicopter turns months later because the details had never been articulated. We are there to shorten the learning curve make sure that happens.

Don’t move onto a new topic without mastering the previous one or least having a solid action plan for what to do outside of class. How could it have been a surprise if you are having problems with topic A and the you add new topics B and C and combine them all at once will be a problem. It was a fiasco, don’t do that if it can be avoided.

A minor point, do read the class material before lecturing on it. I believe the class material had changed immediately prior to my class. While an alternative point of view was interesting better preparation would have been desirable. That said the lectures were very good.

Hello again,

Now on to part two of your post:

And this one is easy: every single thing you said is correct. (I would like to talk about the water part at the end) This is in fact how we are taught to teach and it is imperative that every student, pass, fail, provisional, provides this kind of meaningful feedback for us to maintain the standards we espouse. I fully expect to be called on the floor if I don't do this. If the demonstration from your instructor is unclear, by all means, ask to see it again. If I have to, I will do 25 valve drills or s drills so you can see it clearly and understand it. I may be a little cold but I will give it my best shot... With respect to the water conditions, we have specific parameters we are required to work within that are designed to give you a setting that is conducive to teaching but sometimes mother nature doesn't read the same text book... It is up to the instructor to make this judgement call while being guided by our published standards.

If I drop the ball, and three students all send in the same QA form making this comment, I will be questioned as to the "why" I did what I did. Every instructor understands that they are held to the same high standard and we make no bones about it. The only way to ensure the quality of instruction is by providing feedback, and as you pointed out, it needs to come from all students....

Best,

Guy

 

[GShockey]

Simple, charge $50 more for any course and refund when QA sheet is completed.

Thank you.

That is an interesting idea. I will forward this up the chain.

I am curious about the feedback from others involved in this thread with respect to your suggestion.

Best,

Guy

 

[ucfdiver]

Thank you.

That is an interesting idea. I will forward this up the chain.

I am curious about the feedback from others involved in this thread with respect to your suggestion.

Best,

Guy

Fundies is already darn near cost prohibitive, I would advise against adding up front cost. Why not have GUE hold the application from the instructor until the QA is received from the student?

 

[Lobzilla]

There's nothing stopping people from approaching fundies as it exists now with this mindset. You can get a rec or even a provisional, go away and practice, and then come back a few months later for an assessment. Your instructor should give you direction and a roadmap on how to improve. Then you came back and see how you have got on. If it's me, they don't even pay for the reassessment so they get 4 days + another couple of dives.

This structure is exactly what we have now. Unfortunately, people get hung up on getting a pass at the end of the 4 day period.

We (students and instructors) decided that we cannot make this mutual commitment since we came from 'all over the country'.

I think I should have the right to be 'hung up' on getting a pass as much as I am hung up on completing an IFR flight with a pass (i.e. without a smoking hole in the ground). Since I have done the latter a couple of times I must either have a lot of luck or my weatherman is a bit more honest about the inclement weather along my route which allows me to make the correct go or no-go decision.

 

[GShockey]

Why not have GUE hold the application from the instructor until the QA is received from the student?

This is currently done. Your certification will not be awarded until you have completed the QA form. However, as Mr. Shark pointed out, there is nothing to "guarantee" that those who don't want to submit the QA form have to do so if they don't care to receive the certification or did not receive a pass in their class.

 

[Jax]

How do you suggest we get input from people who have no requirement to provide it? Why did you or your group or the other group not provide feedback via the QA form? You have/had the opportunity to help correct the very things you feel need correcting but you chose not to. How do you suggest we make it mandatory for feedback? This is a sincere question and not intended as sarcasm, and as one of the only two GUE instructors sitting on the Quality Assurance board, I can assure you that if you have a good idea for this, I will forward it to the Chairman and the entire QA board will examine your idea closely.

Best,

Guy

While I do not have an opinion on how to get everyone to respond, I will recommend you look at how the feedback is requested.

The feedback form seems canted to a positive result. One rated from 1 to 5, strongly disagree to strongly agree, for questions along the line of

- The standard was clear (yes, of course)
- The instructors maintained the GUE standard (yes, of course)
- You were held to high standards (yes, of course)
- Skills demonstrated according to standard (yes, of course)

I believe the above are asked to insure standards . . . okay, got it.

Now, sticking to the 1 - 5, how about questions like

- My instructors explained thoroughly how to meet the standard
- My instructors' feedback made me understand how to fix what was wrong
- Class gave a clear understanding of <insert section here - Nitrox, rescue, etc)
- Gear adjustments were understandable and helpful

Then there was one box for narrative. How about one box for each of the areas of the class, such as "training environment", "classroom environment", "instructor(s)", and "overall"

If I had printed the eval, I could give better feedback. This is from memory, sorry.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Hummm,

When I buy something I'm frequently propositioned to complete a "survey" regarding the goods and services I purchased.

I usually decline.

I would view any effort to compel me to participate unfavorably.

When do I participate? When I feel strongly about the organization and believe they are sincere in trying to improve their offerings and are actually open to criticism.

Tobin

 

[Gombessa]

that's why the better way to take and pass Fundies

I think this is the crux of the issue. If you're taking Fundamentals with the goal of "passing" the evaluation portion, the bar is very high (that high standard being very much part of the reason why people look to taking fundies in the first place). If, on the other hand, you look at it with the goal of being exposed to and learning the procedures and philosophies that make GUE diving safe and fun (which includes much, much more than just personal skills such as buoyancy and trim), and to use what is learned in the course to improve your diving on an ongoing basis, most people really don't need to sweat any of the pre-course preparation being bandied about, and can just focus on learning and absorbing what the class has to teach. Unless you're gunning to jump immediately into technical training from GUE, the card earned from a pass doesn't get you anything you don't already have (other than maybe Nitrox, which I understand you can get in some places without doing any actual dives).