My Venture into GUE - Another view

[Gareth]

Guy,

I understand how the survey system currently works. But the surveys missed the entirety of my class and the entirety of Jax’s class as well. Working with this pretty limited sample it appears you are not getting inputs from a lot people.

Not knowing the details of your course it would be unprofessional of me to comment. However, with regards to the above, the Quality Assurance is something I am personally investigating to see if we can improve the forms, the delivery, and the reporting. I can't say what I'm up to or how long it will take (there is no GUE other than it's instructors so everything depends on volunteer time) but I am working on a proposal to the standards and training committees to overhaul this area.

I genuinely believe GUE has the best QA system of any training agency in the world, but I think it could be so much better and deliver so much more, both in the realm of improving instructor performance, and in giving students the opportunity to feed back.

G

 

[ucfdiver]

I disagree . . . (surprise!)

I did go in with an open mind, and with the exception of a discussion on sidemount out of class, did not bring up the philosophy. That would not have been fair to my instructors, nor classmates.

Why is it unfair to bring up another gear configuration during class, at least during the section of class where gear is being discussed? I think asking someone who's experienced in the DIR gear configuration is a huge step towards better understanding of side mount, as well as a better appreciation of BM. They're intimately familiar with the benefits of their standard gear configuration and can often quickly see where others come short (or rise above). I know I've had discussions with WKPP guys, GUE staff, GUE instructors, and Halcyon staff about the merits of DIR config vs SM config, and I think we've all learned from it. This discussion has lead to a better appreciation for my back mount rig, as well as a more thoughtful approach to my Sm rig.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that you argue why SM is better. I'm suggesting that you ask in what ways the configuration they're being paid to teach is better than others.

It does not, however, take away that the class was more of an evaluation than a training experience, and that it requires more than 'standard' skill levels going in. As Lobzilla said, the advice of others that one should "go in before you have bad habits to break" is not good advice.

To be fair, many who have taken the course feel just the opposite.

Jax, just curious, how many dives have you done in the last 6 months that were for fun, without any gear changes having been made, and not dedicated to practicing skills? From your posts, you seem to be someone who strives to look and dive their best, but I almost wonder if your desire to be excellent has caused you to place unnecessary stress on yourself.

 

[Cave Diver]

I disagree . . . (surprise!)

No surprise.

I did go in with an open mind, and with the exception of a discussion on sidemount out of class, did not bring up GUE philosophy. That would not have been fair to my instructors, nor classmates.

I gave the class a fair shake. Dan Volker's description above as a "Hell Week", and Lobzilla's assessment that a student should not come in without trim and buoyancy dialed in is fair and accurate, IMO. I failed the class, and myself, by not practicing in my drysuit with the single. I stated that up front.

Maybe you did give it a fair shake. But several of your comment read (to me) about how things should have been done. That gives me the impression that you had set expectations which the class didn't meet. Those expectations may have contributed to the stress you felt, and subsequently your performance.

It does not, however, take away that the class was more of an evaluation than a training experience, and that it requires more than 'standard' skill levels going in. As Lobzilla said, the advice of others that one should "go in before you have bad habits to break" is not good advice.

I think that's going to depend on the individual. If someone goes in expecting that they have good skills and are going to be evaluated on that, they may lose some of the value if they find themselves lacking.

Those that go in knowing that they're lacking and use it as a building block are more likely to come away feeling they've learned something rather than feeling demoralized.

 

[Lobzilla]

I genuinely believe GUE has the best QA system of any training agency in the world, ...

G

Another reason why I decided to train with GUE.

What's broken is the QA on what folks here on SB portrait GUE Fundies to be.
Depending on the students, the instructor, and the circumstances Fundies are somewhere between "Hell Week" and "Everybody had a ball".

While the GUE QA system relieves you from doing your homework in terms of innate instructor quality you still have to properly match your prerequisite skills and goals with the instructor's emphasis in class.

 

[BigBubbaJ]

Just one more perspective on this matter from a UTD POV here: For all the classes that I have taken and seen others take, there is definitely a moment in the class where either the student is ready for the evaluations, or in need of more practice. Perhaps it is our unique logistics, a monthly known trip to a known destination, and an Instructor who allows a student to wait for evaluation until they are ready (mostly Essentials). Fortunately we have a big enough pool of folks who are willing to stand in if team mates aren't available but it definitely creates a more "fun" way to approach all the new things that are impediments to a pass in these courses. In fairness, I have also heard criticism that there aren't enough demos, etc. I haven't personally experienced that, but would say that I ask all the little questions and make a point of doing so. Why would one be expected to know what you take a class to learn? There isn't hand holding. This is technical diving training. If you don't feel like you learned the back kick, ask someone to demonstrate. Tell the instructor to demo it again. I guarantee you they won't say no. In our group, everyone is very helpful and friendly. We did 9 failures skills on the surface many umpteen times as a team to work with team mates who were struggling with concepts. This makes underwater skills so much easier. I had many moments feeling like I had no business in the water ever again, but you learn through the process. Don't even ask me what it feels like during a tech 1 critical skills dive when you have gotten into so much trouble that the instructor has to take over as captain. Not a happy feeling. But they are there for our safety and learning.

I am starting my UTD tech 2 in about 2 weeks. I never feel ready for these classes. But only because I know what is in store by seeing from the shore and hearing stories at dinner from folks who have passed tech 2 before us. I felt the same way before Tech 1. UTD tech 1 is all on a line. Tech 2 is all blue water, adds a stage bottle to the deco bottle, and requires the team to manage a bag on every ascent. More failures. Great. But, bottom line is that I trust my team. And I know my team mates are having similar anxiety, but you know what? It will be fun after every dive because we will do it as a team. I did manage in tech 1 to develop an awesome blind wing failure rear "auto dump" technique. Similar skills always develop during these classes.

 

[Cave Diver]

What's broken is the QA on what folks here on SB portrait GUE Fundies to be.
Depending on the instructor and the circumstances Fundies is somewhere between "Hell Week" and "Everybody had a ball".

I think it's more the participants than the instructor that determine that. My fundies class had people towards both ends of that spectrum.

 

[Lobzilla]

I think it's more the participants than the instructor that determine that. My fundies class had people towards both ends of that spectrum.

Fixed above.

 

[InTheDrink]

You're right, it's not for me to say. I leave that to my students.

What people say about GUE Fundamentals

or a more objective report...

http://www.yorkshire-divers.com/forums/dir/128098-gue-fundamentals-gareth-burrows.html


As for the HELL WEEK, well let's agree to disagree. I'm here to inform and educate, and indeed learn, where I can, not to get into heated debates. I'll leave that to others. All I can say is what Fundamentals means to me, and my approach to teaching it. Meanwhile I'm teaching another class next week. I can promise you they will have a really fun time, with no beasting, no bell to ring, and no more stress than they bring along themselves. I suspect we'll all have a great laugh, as always. none of my students will be "breaking down" by the end of it. Typically they come out smiiling and amazed at how far they've come in just a few days. If you wish to discuss this further by PM as you say, then I'd be delighted to do so.

Probably worth chiming in here in the interests of objectivity. I was the John on Garfs fundies course in September.

I really struggled. It started out ok but ended up hell month. I started averagely and finished poorly. I felt completely frustrated at my performance which seemed to desert me.

Couple of things. This was mostly the ego I brought to the table myself and as my father in law remarked afterwards, it's always a bit hard when you're not as good as you thought you were.

Garf was a great instructor and I really felt he was encouraging me rather than berating me. I did feel a bit rushed sometimes which I should have been more vocal about. But ultimately the two guys that got the tech passes could cope with task loading more than I could.

All that said, the course was enormous fun and I learned so so much and I really feel it was the platform course that will allow me to proceed and improve my diving irrespective of agency.

My kit was tweaked somewhat including going to 7 foot hose (im usually 5ft) and can light which I hadn't done before and I was pretty new to doubles. This added a lot to the task loading especially as I struggled to locate my rear dump.

But I must conclude that for several weeks afterwards I couldn't stop thinking about my performance and felt quite embarrassed I hadn't got a tech pass. I'm kind of glad that happened now, as I realise the main obstacle I brought was my ego however heavily disguised.

Now I'm relaxed that I've got a **** load to learn and am not what I thought I am. I think I have very noticeably improved in the water and hopefully next time Garf sees me he will concur.

Performance anxiety exists but I am inclined to think on balance if you're looking to do more hazardous activities this is probably a good think. It's just another light bulb going out.

J

 

[Gareth]

Probably worth chiming in here in the interests of objectivity. I was the John on Garfs fundies course in September.

I really struggled. It started out ok but ended up hell month. I started averagely and finished poorly. I felt completely frustrated at my performance which seemed to desert me.

Couple of things. This was mostly the ego I brought to the table myself and as my father in law remarked afterwards, it's always a bit hard when you're not as good as you thought you were.

Garf was a great instructor and I really felt he was encouraging me rather than berating me. I did feel a bit rushed sometimes which I should have been more vocal about. But ultimately the two guys that got the tech passes could cope with task loading more than I could.

All that said, the course was enormous fun and I learned so so much and I really feel it was the platform course that will allow me to proceed and improve my diving irrespective of agency.

My kit was tweaked somewhat including going to 7 foot hose (im usually 5ft) and can light which I hadn't done before and I was pretty new to doubles. This added a lot to the task loading especially as I struggled to locate my rear dump.

But I must conclude that for several weeks afterwards I couldn't stop thinking about my performance and felt quite embarrassed I hadn't got a tech pass. I'm kind of glad that happened now, as I realise the main obstacle I brought was my ego however heavily disguised.

Now I'm relaxed that I've got a **** load to learn and am not what I thought I am. I think I have very noticeably improved in the water and hopefully next time Garf sees me he will concur.

Performance anxiety exists but I am inclined to think on balance if you're looking to do more hazardous activities this is probably a good think. It's just another light bulb going out.

J

hi John, long time no hear

Let's jump in the water soon mate

 

[InTheDrink]

Yeah deffo mate, once I've got my new (and somewhat oversized - but hey it was a bargain) drysuit to calm down on trying to kill me.

Btw, CCR course next month. Just to vex you ;-).

Let's try to catch up soon and get some dives in. Be great to see Adam again too. What's he now - Tech 7?

J