My Venture into GUE - Another view

[danvolker]

or perhaps something like "GUE essentials". Or maybe "GUE Fundamentals"

hey ! wait a minute....

People need to get over this "HELL WEEK" crap. It's not military training. Hell, I've done military training and even most military training isn't what people seem to think it is. Outside specialised selection courses, most military instructors have now recognised that beasting people achieves very little in the way of education.

GUE Fundamentals is supposed to be a no stress course. It is not the instructors job to add any stress to the student on the course. It is, in fact, the instructors job to REMOVE the stress that the students bring with them because they read nonsense like "HELL WEEK" on the internet.

I do not want people to go away thinking they've just been beasted, or worse telling people that's what happened. I want people to become stronger, safer divers. I coach people through courses rather than beat them with a stick. The "beat them with a stick" approach used to exist within GUE in all honesty. I remember sitting in my car about five years ago half way through tech 1 wondering if I should just drive home instead of to the hotel. However, it was more individual instructor style rather than agency technique, and even in the instructor courses it's now been phased out. If students say things like "that was the most fun course I've ever done" then it ticks all the boxes for me. Fundies is supposed to be fun. Education should be if it is to be effective.

What is the point of the course if all the skills are practiced for months in advance. Then you might as well have a short assessment rather than a four day course where you are supposed to be taught everything. That's pretty much what fundies used to be and people kept failing it. That's why we turned it into more of a course.

If an assessment is all people want there is room in the standards for it. Having had no GUE training there is a mechanism for speaking to GUE and then having an in water asessment with an instructor, which if successful will allow you to go straight into Tech1 or Cave1 or even Tech2 or Cave2 if you meet the standards. So GUE allow crossover from ANY agency, as long as your prior training allows you to meet expected standards. Those standards are not often met, which is why fundamentals was developed in the first place.

Gareth,
Maybe you are teaching a different Fundoes class than they teach here. For you to dismiss the hell week anology so aggressively, is wrong.

The original idea of taking DIR out to the masses ( beyond the WKPP) was important, because we wanted to get common sense diving ideas and better skills out to divers worldwide. GUE was a spectacular advancement of the goal. But if you take the tremendous body of knowledge and skills GUE represents. offer this as a carrot, and then make a one week class so demanding that students are almost breaking down by the end of it---what resemblance does this result have with the original goal?
You want to say the "hell week" name tag is bogus. I don't think that is for you to say...I think the past students of Fundies courses are the ones who should answer this. I've talked to enough past fundies students to know.... it is your attitude that needs fixing.
Going through Fundies SHOULD be fun. Diving should be fun. The hundreds of deep tech dives I did With George Irvine and Bill Mee back in the mid to late nineties were always fun, and we did dives that would scare the cr%p out of most tech divers today. New people we took on and mentored into doing these deep dive sites would never have complained about skill preformance anxiety...

I stand by my earlier post---there needs to be a class preceeding it. Let's take this to private message rather than escalating this here.


My real point to this pre-requisite course idea, DOES NOT require GUE to make any changes ( although I happen to think this would be good)....All that really needs to happen is for all of the Fundies graduates to begin telling their peers and divers interested in Fundies, they SHOULD ABSOLUTELY TAKE THE PRIMER COURSE FIRST.

 

[Gareth]

Gareth,
Maybe you are teaching a different Fundoes class than they teach here. For you to dismiss the hell week anology so aggressively, is wrong.

The original idea of taking DIR out to the masses ( beyond the WKPP) was important, because we wanted to get common sense diving ideas and better skills out to divers worldwide. GUE was a spectacular advancement of the goal. But if you take the tremendous body of knowledge and skills GUE represents. offer this as a carrot, and then make a one week class so demanding that students are almost breaking down by the end of it---what resemblance does this result have with the original goal?
You want to say the "hell week" name tag is bogus. I don't think that is for you to say...I think the past students of Fundies courses are the ones who should answer this. I've talked to enough past fundies students to know.... it is your attitude that needs fixing.
Going through Fundies SHOULD be fun. Diving should be fun. The hundreds of deep tech dives I did With George Irvine and Bill Mee back in the mid to late nineties were always fun, and we did dives that would scare the cr%p out of most tech divers today. New people we took on and mentored into doing these deep dive sites would never have complained about skill preformance anxiety...

I stand by my earlier post---there needs to be a class preceeding it. Let's take this to private message rather than escalating this here.


My real point to this pre-requisite course idea, DOES NOT require GUE to make any changes ( although I happen to think this would be good)....All that really needs to happen is for all of the Fundies graduates to begin telling their peers and divers interested in Fundies, they SHOULD ABSOLUTELY TAKE THE PRIMER COURSE FIRST.

You're right, it's not for me to say. I leave that to my students.

What people say about GUE Fundamentals

or a more objective report...

http://www.yorkshire-divers.com/forums/dir/128098-gue-fundamentals-gareth-burrows.html


As for the HELL WEEK, well let's agree to disagree. I'm here to inform and educate, and indeed learn, where I can, not to get into heated debates. I'll leave that to others. All I can say is what Fundamentals means to me, and my approach to teaching it. Meanwhile I'm teaching another class next week. I can promise you they will have a really fun time, with no beasting, no bell to ring, and no more stress than they bring along themselves. I suspect we'll all have a great laugh, as always. none of my students will be "breaking down" by the end of it. Typically they come out smiiling and amazed at how far they've come in just a few days. If you wish to discuss this further by PM as you say, then I'd be delighted to do so.

 

[Lobzilla]

You're right, it's not for me to say. I leave that to my students.

What people say about GUE Fundamentals

or a more objective report...

GUE fundamentals - with Gareth Burrows


As for the HELL WEEK, well let's agree to disagree. I'm here to inform and educate, and indeed learn, where I can, not to get into heated debates. I'll leave that to others. All I can say is what Fundamentals means to me, and my approach to teaching it. Meanwhile I'm teaching another class next week. I can promise you they will have a really fun time, with no beasting, no bell to ring, and no more stress than they bring along themselves. I suspect we'll all have a great laugh, as always. none of my students will be "breaking down" by the end of it. Typically they come out smiiling and amazed at how far they've come in just a few days. If you wish to discuss this further by PM as you say, then I'd be delighted to do so.

Let me see, I could go to the UK and have a jolly good time in the Fundies but would probably kill myself taking a left turn to the wrong side of the street Too bad, another non-option.

After the class, I am still in 100% agreement with the GUE philosophy, will continue with the same instructor for the same reasons (I want tough training so my future explorations will be fun and not harmful), but will agree with the GUE slanderers here on SB that the <violins> "We went into Fundies, got humbled, but all passed and had fun"</violins> reports are either fairy tales from distant kingdoms or tasteless reverse-bragging from folks who spent a whole lot more sweat than they had the guts to admit.

 

[TSandM]

Gareth, you and Dan are on the same page. And I wish you were somewhere I could send my friends to take Fundies

 

[ScubaFeenD]

Garf,

(I know that HenrickBP and ScubaFeenD agreed with that while they were getting cold feet watching the video

Im not sure where you got your information, but I dont have cold feet at all. Im too stubborn for that.

 

[Lobzilla]

How about creating "FUNdies" and "REALdies"

The first one for folks who want to come largely unprepared, want to have fun, learn something and do not care about a pass.

The second one for folks who have clear goals, and expect an honest list of prerequisites that are required before the class in order to progress in the class and pass.

 

[Peter Guy]

I was an observer of some of what went on that led to this thread and I had the opportunity to discuss the class with a number of the students. I'm also one who has a history of being a "GUE Agnostic" and have publicly stated I will never take another GUE class.

I also dive with a lot of GUE trained divers and have never had so much fun diving as when I'm with a big group of them.

Last point -- I may well be one of the few people who did, in fact, take "Essentials" prior to taking Fundies -- back before UTD existed -- so I did take the path that Dan is suggesting. I have no idea if that helped (it certainly didn't hurt).

OK -- my two cents:

The skills I learned in Essentials (taught by Joe Talavera after he had left GUE) and Fundies (taught by Steve White who no longer is a GUE instructor) provided me with the tools to be a MUCH better diver (and I'd like to think a much better PADI recreational instructor). Both Joe and Steve showed me "the bar" and helped me (eventually) to get over it (I got my Tech Pass). IT WAS NOT EASY and it took a lot of work, time and effort -- and, quite frankly, it took the addition of hiring another (former GUE) instructor to identify the final issues that I was having with my trim and balance.

BTW, I took my class with two people I knew (one with whom I'd done some diving, the other with whom I don't recall every having dived with but who had, literally, thousands of dives more than Steve did) and we didn't practice before hand. We had discussed this and decided it was Steve's job to teach us the various skills -- we were there to learn and we hope pass. But we WERE absolutely ready to take the class in that we were comfortable in our gear, we were pretty solid in our bouyancy control (although two of us didn't have the trim right nor did we have back kicks) and we all had an idea of "teamness."

Even though I had been exposed to the skills in Essentials, did I learn stuff in Fundies? Heck yes! Do I recommend it to my students? You bet. Do I have problems with the Class? Well, yes!

Dan, Garf, all -- There is an inherent conflict in teaching/evaluating -- especially when everything is so compressed in time. As Guy wrote, the weekend classes are much better because it gives the students a time to decompress, process and practice between the sessions. I had the effect of a weekend class because I had a local instructor who was very willing to come dive/mentor/evaluate me long after the formal class sessions had ended -- so I had time to decompress, practice and process (and even take more instruction).

Dan -- I'm not sure taking "Essentials" will solve the problems discussed in this thread. Every set of students is different -- and, quite frankly, every GUE instructor will teach/evaluate/emphasize differently. However, what needs to be "Perfectly Clear" is the PURPOSE of Fundamentals of Diving which is, I believe to give every diver a solid foundation of basic team diving skills. It should NOT be to create a "cadre of elite divers" (as one GUE instructor has stated) -- or if it is, that should be VERY CLEARLY stated at the get-go so that old guys like me don't take the class. As long as it IS structured and taught to provide the "solid foundational skills" I think GUE will continue to have a winner.

 

[Mr Carcharodon]

I think you are under a bit of a misunderstanding here.

Guy,

I understand how the survey system currently works. But the surveys missed the entirety of my class and the entirety of Jax&#8217;s class as well. Working with this pretty limited sample it appears you are not getting inputs from a lot people. Something to consider is that some of the potentially more useful inputs are being systematically excluded. Doing that does create a skewed view of how the classes perform. The essence of QA is to document issues and then resolve them. If the first step is skipped the second is not likely to follow.

My suggestions for making the class better would include (this is kind of the evaluation I never made):

Do the first two dives in confined water, or at least calm shallow water so surfacing is easy and immediate feedback can be offered. We did these dives in 30 fsw with surge and current which diminished the chance for rapid feedback. Also we made a number of minor gear configuration changes just prior to the dives. Reconfiguring gear and then checking it out in surge and current is not ideal.

Be specific. By in large I already know if I am screwing up I don&#8217;t need a global comment like that, but I do need to be told specifically how to address issues.

A single demonstration is not enough. That is pretty much what we got and then were told to go forth and practice. Break each skill up into bits, write it down and hand it out. My team was disagreeing about the minutia of helicopter turns months later because the details had never been articulated. We are there to shorten the learning curve make sure that happens.

Don&#8217;t move onto a new topic without mastering the previous one or least having a solid action plan for what to do outside of class. How could it have been a surprise if you are having problems with topic A and the you add new topics B and C and combine them all at once will be a problem. It was a fiasco, don&#8217;t do that if it can be avoided.

A minor point, do read the class material before lecturing on it. I believe the class material had changed immediately prior to my class. While an alternative point of view was interesting better preparation would have been desirable. That said the lectures were very good.

 

[Lobzilla]

You're right, it's not for me to say. I leave that to my students.

What people say about GUE Fundamentals

<snip>

They say that Americans and Brits are divided by a common language.

But even then,

"Gareth's calm and patient coaching helped me prepare mentally and practically for me GUE-F, increasing my confidence in my ability to gain a Tech Pass." Morag Ward, GUE Fundamentals Graduate

does not sound like someone walking into Fundies 'from the street' and walking out with a Tech pass.

 

[Jax]

I've got to say I was a bit surprised by Jax's announcement of signing up for the GUE event. In the not so distant past she'd been pretty vocal about her dislike for the way she felt the agency approached things and their lack of willingness to change and allow such things as sidemount configurations.

In my opinion, when you go into a class and you're already at odds with the way things are done it's going to make a class that much more difficult. Thinking that they should be more open to the way you do things, rather than allowing yourself to be open to their way of doing things just seems like a setup for failure.

I disagree . . . (surprise!)

I did go in with an open mind, and with the exception of a discussion on sidemount out of class, did not bring up GUE philosophy. That would not have been fair to my instructors, nor classmates.

I gave the class a fair shake. Dan Volker's description above as a "Hell Week", and Lobzilla's assessment that a student should not come in without trim and buoyancy dialed in is fair and accurate, IMO. I failed the class, and myself, by not practicing in my drysuit with the single. I stated that up front.

It does not, however, take away that the class was more of an evaluation than a training experience, and that it requires more than 'standard' skill levels going in. As Lobzilla said, the advice of others that one should "go in before you have bad habits to break" is not good advice.