My Venture into GUE - Another view

[Mr Carcharodon]

When did you take the class, Mr. Cacharodon? The format of the class was changed about three years ago or so, to include Nitrox and Rescue skills, and it went from three days to five.

We took the class back in 2007 when nitrox and toxing diver rescues were already in the curriculum. We had two evening lectures, a full Saturday and half a Sunday. Less than five days.

Post class we practiced a lot. Finally one rainy Sunday months later we got into a disagreement over the details of helicopter turns. That was an epiphany that of course we disagreed because the details of the skills had never been articulated. The three of us all got provisionals but none of us ever went back for an evaluation. Practicing was making diving worse instead of better so we stopped. Two of us still dive and we are having a pretty good time. Sometime I would like to find out what you mean when you say DIR made your diving more fun. It seems like I should know what that means, but really don’t.

One area where GUE could really work on is their QA. They like to talk about 100% QA. No one from my class filled out a QA form. That would be 0%. It does not take too long to figure out that 0% falls short of 100%. If you only take evaluations from people who are satisfied the results are likely to be skewed. And I really do like the system even if the instruction did not work well for me.

Anyway it was certainly not a goal to walk away disappointed. I would suggest longer classes especially if you do not have access to an instructor, mentors, or like minded divers in your immediate area. I am glad that it has worked out well for many people.

 

[Scott L]

Perfect trim means tank(s) level, head pinned against the isolator knob, and your arms forward and up so that the top of your hands are the horizon line. While this is already much more challenging than what was suggested as preparation you should also be able to do this while distracted.

:chuckle:

 

[Jax]

We took the class back in 2007 when nitrox and toxing diver rescues were already in the curriculum. We had two evening lectures, a full Saturday and half a Sunday. Less than five days.

Post class we practiced a lot. Finally one rainy Sunday months later we got into a disagreement over the details of helicopter turns. That was an epiphany that of course we disagreed because the details of the skills had never been articulated. The three of us all got provisionals but none of us ever went back for an evaluation. Practicing was making diving worse instead of better so we stopped. Two of us still dive and we are having a pretty good time. Sometime I would like to find out what you mean when you say DIR made your diving more fun. It seems like I should know what that means, but really don’t.

One area where GUE could really work on is their QA. They like to talk about 100% QA. No one from my class filled out a QA form. That would be 0%. It does not take too long to figure out that 0% falls short of 100%. If you only take evaluations from people who are satisfied the results are likely to be skewed. And I really do like the system even if the instruction did not work well for me.

Anyway it was certainly not a goal to walk away disappointed. I would suggest longer classes especially if you do not have access to an instructor, mentors, or like minded divers in your immediate area. I am glad that it has worked out well for many people.

Thank you -- this hits home.

 

[ligersandtions]

How would you suggest doing this? This is sort of a classic problem since before the class you do not know what questions to ask. Certainly I thought my instructor was highly skilled and had high exceptions, all good things. But he pretty ineffective at conveying the "how to's" to improve. We were told to "go practice" without a lot of detail. One question I wish I had asked was how long the class was. I read fundies reports here and realize that many of the classes are almost twice as long as the one I went through.

I know we've talked about it a little bit, but I do know who you took your class with and I think it was a series of unfortunate circumstances. Unfortunately, instructors who have come highly recommended do not always put on the best class (I do know of a recent class that was put on that seemed like it would be a really great class to be a part of that turned into a huge bust....both instructors are great, but between strong personalities in some of the students, crap weather, and some other stuff, it definitely did not live up to its potential).

I think one of the best ways to choose an instructor is to read reviews from students who have taken classes through that particular instructor, chat with the instructor and see if your personalities and goals mesh, and (imo) be adamant about having a maximum of three students in your class....not six students with two instructors, but three students and one instructor, period. I've not yet heard of a single co-instructed class with more than three students that has been run well. I honestly think this is a very important point.

 

[Lobzilla]

We took the class back in 2007 when nitrox and toxing diver rescues were already in the curriculum. We had two evening lectures, a full Saturday and half a Sunday. Less than five days.

Post class we practiced a lot. Finally one rainy Sunday months later we got into a disagreement over the details of helicopter turns. That was an epiphany that of course we disagreed because the details of the skills had never been articulated. The three of us all got provisionals but none of us ever went back for an evaluation. Practicing was making diving worse instead of better so we stopped. Two of us still dive and we are having a pretty good time. Sometime I would like to find out what you mean when you say DIR made your diving more fun. It seems like I should know what that means, but really don’t.

One area where GUE could really work on is their QA. They like to talk about 100% QA. No one from my class filled out a QA form. That would be 0%. It does not take too long to figure out that 0% falls short of 100%. If you only take evaluations from people who are satisfied the results are likely to be skewed. And I really do like the system even if the instruction did not work well for me.

Anyway it was certainly not a goal to walk away disappointed. I would suggest longer classes especially if you do not have access to an instructor, mentors, or like minded divers in your immediate area. I am glad that it has worked out well for many people.

Whether someone likes the Fundies and/or sticks with the GUE philosophy depends on the individual gain versus pain assessment. That is a purely personal decision.

My issue is that the 'pain' component was, and still is, publicly misrepresented. Even after Jax posted the 100% not-passed result of our class people still suggest to walk into a class with some buoyancy skills and an open mind. Dream on.

One of our instructors was making references to 'ringing the bell'. While our Fundies course was not nearly as bad as BUD/S, the Navy and its members do not pussyfoot around what their course really is and always was: a screening before further training.

Some people may enter Fundies just for the fun of it and do not care about a pass. However, this does not change the fact that without a Fundie pass there is no GUE Rec, Tech, or Cave in your future.

 

[mikemill]

I think Gareth's idea of actually chatting with the instructor is a good one -- you still may not know how good a teacher he is, but you'll know after a while whether you like him or not.

It could just be me but I don't like the idea of determining if I'm gonna take a class with a particular instructor based on whether I like them or not. Rather base it on whether you can work with that individual.

Not GUE but still an example: When I got my scooter I looked at doing the UTD Scooter class and was asking around for a good instructor. What I got a lot of was "Take it with AG. I don't particularly like the guy but he is a good instructor and knows these scooters". So I took it with AG. I don't really like the guy (at the same time I don't dislike him) but I could work with and learn from him.

 

[Mr Carcharodon]

I know we've talked about it a little bit.

You have been fortunate to have fallen into a group of people who are already GUE certified. That likely has provided opportunities for more feedback and to put the system into a larger context. That may really be a vital component. Some people just because they removed from other GUE divers do not have that. The handful of people who are GUE trained that I occasionally dive with do not seem to dive a whole lot differently than I do. Does that mean that I eventually “got it” or that they fell off the band wagon. I don’t know. Some day I would like to find out.

Anyway please do not takes this as anti-DIR it is certainly not intended to be, there is a lot of value there.

 

[GShockey]

The three of us all got provisionals but none of us ever went back for an evaluation...

One area where GUE could really work on is their QA. They like to talk about 100% QA. No one from my class filled out a QA form. That would be 0%. It does not take too long to figure out that 0% falls short of 100%. If you only take evaluations from people who are satisfied the results are likely to be skewed. .

I think you are under a bit of a misunderstanding here. We encourage all students to complete the QA forms at the end of the class and in fact, if you pass the class, either with a Rec or a Tech pass, you will not receive your certification card and your certification will not be completed until you have filled out the QA form. This is the best we can do. We have no means to insist that a student who fails or receives a provisional complete the QA form. However, if you had been reevaluated at a later date and passed, you would have been required to complete the QA form before your certification would be processed. GUE instructors are able to monitor whether their students submit their QA forms and I will remind all my students if they do not complete theirs, regardless of the outcome of the class.

With respect to your last comment, "If you only take evaluations from people who are satisfied the results are likely to be skewed", I would agree, however, you are incorrect in that we "only take evaluations from people who are satisfied". Every single QA form is reviewed confidentially by the chairman of the QA board but he can only review those that he receives. As mentioned above, we can, and do insist that those students who desire GUE certification complete the QA form before receiving certification. It is unfortunate that your group chose not to complete the QA form as your comments, good or bad would have been part of the ongoing process of making GUE a better training agency.

Best,

Guy Shockey
GUE Instructor

 

[GShockey]

The format of the class was changed about three years ago or so, to include Nitrox and Rescue skills, and it went from three days to five.
)

Hi Lynne,

Actually, the most common format for the class is 4 days, particularly when conditions are something like what we have in the PNW. I have run 5 day classes and they are nice, but not usually needed for only 3 students. Lately, I have run a few split weekend classes and those seem to work really well but only if the logistics work out as they have in your area for me.

BTW, are you ever going to be around when I am in Seattle?... I am actually starting to think you don't really live there.....

Best,

Guy

 

[HenrikBP]

I've not yet heard of a single co-instructed class with more than three students that has been run well. I honestly think this is a very important point.

My class was 5 students with one instructor and one "instructor-in-training" (I'm not sure where exactly in the "process" he was). And I was actually quite happy with the class. Not easy by any stretch, and it was some long and sometimes frustrating days - frustration being with my own performance, not the instruction or instructors. But the instruction always had a positive spin and an eye towards providing us with a solid class and proper tools to continue working on our skills post class.

As for picking an instructor; I'd met 3 GUE instructors by the time I decided to sign up for Fundies. And while I'm certain they all teach a solid class, I was fortunate and happy to be able to pick the one who's personality worked well for me.

Henrik