My Venture into GUE - Another view

[Gareth]

. No need for me to respond as Guy already has.

 

[TSandM]

Mr. Carcharodon, I suspect that means you got what you needed out of it.

DIR diving isn't anything magical or bizarre. It's just diving with good personal skills, and diving with strong situational awareness and a commitment to doing the dive as a team. No rocket science. But it does take work to develop the skills that allow you to do it effortlessly.

Next time I come down to SoCal, I'll try to remember to get in touch and we can go diving.

BTW, I think a Fundies instructor who's making anything but extremely humorous references to ringing the bell has the wrong attitude. JMO.

Guy, you do a really good job of avoiding me. I'm beginning to feel rejected

 

[GShockey]

Guy, you do a really good job of avoiding me. I'm beginning to feel rejected

Haha.. You never call, you never write.........

 

[Hepcat62]

..., and (imo) be adamant about having a maximum of three students in your class....not six students with two instructors, but three students and one instructor, period. I've not yet heard of a single co-instructed class with more than three students that has been run well. I honestly think this is a very important point.

I'm not actually trying to contradict you, but I just wanted to say that I believe we've had at least a few recently in the NorCal/Monterey area... While I can definitely see how in a lot of cases that might be problematic, Beto Nava, Susan Bird, and Robert Lee have been co-teaching classes for a while now. I think it's been more common to have 2+ instructors (or instructor candidates at the time) in these classes than not for a little while now, and I think it's been working out really well. All 3 have different strong points, which made for a really great class. I was only in a three student class, but I personally know a few people who came out of a 6 person class and were satisfied.

 

[danvolker]

You have been fortunate to have fallen into a group of people who are already GUE certified. That likely has provided opportunities for more feedback and to put the system into a larger context. That may really be a vital component. Some people just because they removed from other GUE divers do not have that. The handful of people who are GUE trained that I occasionally dive with do not seem to dive a whole lot differently than I do. Does that mean that I eventually “got it” or that they fell off the band wagon. I don’t know. Some day I would like to find out.

Anyway please do not takes this as anti-DIR it is certainly not intended to be, there is a lot of value there.

From what I have seen, I think what needs to happen is that the Primer class must be completed first.....both as a rating tool for judging who would be able to move on to fundies and who would have lots of work to do....and for providing each diver with a knowledge of what skillset they need to work on. Personally, I think FUNDIES would be more fun for people if they had the chance to practice essential skills for weeks or months prior to FUNDIES. If you and a team mate could practice for weeks or months prior, as a team....when you finally get to "HELL WEEK" , the challenges of the class WILL be fun. And with most diver's who had the talent, and really worked on the skills learned in the intro class, HELLWEEK would no longer be HELLWEEK...it would a great learning experience.




Also, they need to change the name of Primer to something like "Essentials of GUE Diving"...it is less pretentious and insulting as a class name, to be suggested to a majority of diver's with many years of diving already behind them.

 

[Gareth]

From what I have seen, I think what needs to happen is that the Primer class must be completed first.....both as a rating tool for judging who would be able to move on to fundies and who would have lots of work to do....and for providing each diver with a knowledge of what skillset they need to work on. Personally, I think FUNDIES would be more fun for people if they had the chance to practice essential skills for weeks or months prior to FUNDIES. If you and a team mate could practice for weeks or months prior, as a team....when you finally get to "HELL WEEK" , the challenges of the class WILL be fun. And with most diver's who had the talent, and really worked on the skills learned in the intro class, HELLWEEK would no longer be HELLWEEK...it would a great learning experience.




Also, they need to change the name of Primer to something like "Essentials of GUE Diving"...it is less pretentious and insulting as a class name, to be suggested to a majority of diver's with many years of diving already behind them.

or perhaps something like "GUE essentials". Or maybe "GUE Fundamentals"

hey ! wait a minute....

People need to get over this "HELL WEEK" crap. It's not military training. Hell, I've done military training and even most military training isn't what people seem to think it is. Outside specialised selection courses, most military instructors have now recognised that beasting people achieves very little in the way of education.

GUE Fundamentals is supposed to be a no stress course. It is not the instructors job to add any stress to the student on the course. It is, in fact, the instructors job to REMOVE the stress that the students bring with them because they read nonsense like "HELL WEEK" on the internet.

I do not want people to go away thinking they've just been beasted, or worse telling people that's what happened. I want people to become stronger, safer divers. I coach people through courses rather than beat them with a stick. The "beat them with a stick" approach used to exist within GUE in all honesty. I remember sitting in my car about five years ago half way through tech 1 wondering if I should just drive home instead of to the hotel. However, it was more individual instructor style rather than agency technique, and even in the instructor courses it's now been phased out. If students say things like "that was the most fun course I've ever done" then it ticks all the boxes for me. Fundies is supposed to be fun. Education should be if it is to be effective.

What is the point of the course if all the skills are practiced for months in advance. Then you might as well have a short assessment rather than a four day course where you are supposed to be taught everything. That's pretty much what fundies used to be and people kept failing it. That's why we turned it into more of a course.

If an assessment is all people want there is room in the standards for it. Having had no GUE training there is a mechanism for speaking to GUE and then having an in water asessment with an instructor, which if successful will allow you to go straight into Tech1 or Cave1 or even Tech2 or Cave2 if you meet the standards. So GUE allow crossover from ANY agency, as long as your prior training allows you to meet expected standards. Those standards are not often met, which is why fundamentals was developed in the first place.

 

[Lobzilla]

I wanted to stay out of this thread but the frequent posts about when and how to enter Fundies prompted me to get involved here. Since I already crossed the Rubicon, let me go it all the way.

There is not much to add about Jax' review of the class and the subsequent dives. She gave an honest account of the events. What may differ among the participants is the motivation for joining these events and subsequently their interpretation of the results.

I completed an SSI Open Water course last August with my nephew, who at some point in his life wants to see the sunken U-boats in the North East. After our first OW dives it was clear to me that I also would like to visit some of the underwater museums of this planet before I drool on my bib in a nursing home. Since I am 53 years old this dream brings with it the personal challenge to acquire the necessary skills in the shortest possible time frame.

While I still enjoy excellent physical (and I hope mental) health there is no way that I can spend 3+ years to PADI/SSI around until Fundie-type skills come by virtue of sheer dive count. If I would do that and then spend another handful of years shuffling through tech/cave/wreck training I may as well sell my gear tomorrow and buy an IMAX ticket for the places I would like to visit. I really did not need another hobby and have plenty of other ways to have fun in life. For me diving is either do it right or do not do it at all.

This is the reason why I decided to proceed with GUE as they offer the most streamlined, comprehensive, and robust system to visit challenging environments and make it home to your family in the evening.

All the expectation I had about quality of instruction, uncompromising attitude about the skills required (which will benefit the students later) where met or exceeded in the recent class.

What turned the class into a detour and delay in my training schedule were two factors:

We had some logistic problems due to location and class size that I wrote off under "you win some you loose some". At the end of the class, the students as well as the instructors were well aware of the causes of these problems and agreed on how to remedy this in the future. I consider this problem solved.

The second, and bigger problem was that I had no business being in the class at this point of my skill progression and that relates largely to how Fundies are 'sold' here on SB and the advice I received from recent Fundie graduates for preparation.

I find it hard to convince myself that our instructor on record came up with his specific requirements in our class and let other students get away with less. Also, his insistence on perfect trim and tight teams is absolutely reasonable, useful, and should be expected if you want to proceed to Tech/Cave. On our fun dives I saw our instructors ease gracefully through a short but tight tunnel and found myself first bashing the manifold into the ceiling and then putting on a silt show that was used to entertain my fellow divers in the evening. I had no business to be in this restriction not because of some 'scuba police' ordinance but because the environment required the perfect trim and posture control that still eludes me.

So why did everyone I asked about getting ready for the Fundies tell me "You'll be fine, just have an open mind" Maybe it is part of the initiation ritual of the group that newbies have a rude awakening. I just hope that when I later ask the same folks about a cave or wreck penetration something more useful and life-saving comes back.

If you ask me about taking a Fundies class with our instructor on record I would advise you to have very solid trim and very solid team skills before entering the class. This way, you will get more out of it. You may be able to find an easier GUE instructor but then you may as well PADI it down all the way and stay out of places that WILL require these skills later.

There is another issue to be considered when preparing to take Fundies. Some of you younger Bucks and Does may dream about joining the exploration efforts of GUE. Do you really want to make an a$$ out of yourself during the first contact with the top dogs of this organization?

In closing, I would like to thank the organizers, especially Dan Volker, for their tireless and successful efforts to make this week an extraordinary and valuable experience (even for those who got their feathers badly ruffled).

 

[Lobzilla]

or perhaps something like "GUE essentials". Or maybe "GUE Fundamentals"

hey ! wait a minute....

People need to get over this "HELL WEEK" crap. It's not military training. Hell, I've done military training and even most military training isn't what people seem to think it is. Outside specialised selection courses, most military instructors have now recognised that beasting people achieves very little in the way of education.

GUE Fundamentals is supposed to be a no stress course. It is not the instructors job to add any stress to the student on the course. It is, in fact, the instructors job to REMOVE the stress that the students bring with them because they read nonsense like "HELL WEEK" on the internet.

I do not want people to go away thinking they've just been beasted, or worse telling people that's what happened. I want people to become stronger, safer divers. I coach people through courses rather than beat them with a stick. The "beat them with a stick" approach used to exist within GUE in all honesty. I remember sitting in my car about five years ago half way through tech 1 wondering if I should just drive home instead of to the hotel. However, it was more individual instructor style rather than agency technique, and even in the instructor courses it's now been phased out. If students say things like "that was the most fun course I've ever done" then it ticks all the boxes for me. Fundies is supposed to be fun. Education should be if it is to be effective.

What is the point of the course if all the skills are practiced for months in advance. Then you might as well have a short assessment rather than a four day course where you are supposed to be taught everything. That's pretty much what fundies used to be and people kept failing it. That's why we turned it into more of a course.

If an assessment is all people want there is room in the standards for it. Having had no GUE training there is a mechanism for speaking to GUE and then having an in water asessment with an instructor, which if successful will allow you to go straight into Tech1 or Cave1 or even Tech2 or Cave2 if you meet the standards. So GUE allow crossover from ANY agency, as long as your prior training allows you to meet expected standards. Those standards are not often met, which is why fundamentals was developed in the first place.

Garf,

There may be some cultural differences and instructor preferences on how the same paper standards are implemented in class.

Yes, Fundies is NOT failure based training but it is the last class where you are afforded that luxury. After watching an 'illegally' published Tech 1 video I would argue that the more demanding Fundies are probably not demanding enough that someone could walk straight into Tech 1 (I know that HenrickBP and ScubaFeenD agreed with that while they were getting cold feet watching the video

We were not 'beasted' in any way. We were simply unable, despite the efforts of our instructors, to meet standards that we agreed on in consensus with our instructors. As explained above, the reasons for this were some logistic challenges but largely a lack of preparation for the challenges of team-based, precision diving. To understand the challenge you should ask yourself how a student can possibly meet the team cohesion requirement without deviating less than 20% from horizontal while his/her buddy is 3 feet directly above (and theoretically still within limits). The next time this happens, I will roll on my back in perfect trim just for sh!t and giggles.

Let's get real here. IF you show me a student that

1. walks into Fundies with no preparation,
2. AND has only fun in the class
3. AND meets the muster of our instructor of record

THEN I will pay this guy/gal a round trip to Dutch Springs to be my team partner for my next Fundies eval dive. (A big S tattooed on the chest is optional).

 

[Trace Malinowski]

People need to get over this "HELL WEEK" crap. It's not military training. Hell, I've done military training and even most military training isn't what people seem to think it is. Outside specialised selection courses, most military instructors have now recognised that beasting people achieves very little in the way of education.

Ah, the good old days! I believe we had the same instructor, Gareth. It was like an SAS "sickening" wasn't it?

Having watched the DIR-F class move from a 3 day course to about 5 days of training in the current GUE-F format, I've seen the class move from more of an "evaluative" course to more "educative." However, sometimes the educational aspect loses some of its potential in favor of promoting the organization's current protocols.

 

[Cave Diver]

After watching an 'illegally' published Tech 1 video I would argue that the more demanding Fundies are probably not demanding enough that someone could walk straight into Tech 1 (I know that HenrickBP and ScubaFeenD agreed with that while they were getting cold feet watching the video

I have to disagree with this. I've heard of people who leave fundies with a tech pass. It may be rare, but it happens.

There is not much to add about Jax' review of the class and the subsequent dives. She gave an honest account of the events. What may differ among the participants is the motivation for joining these events and subsequently their interpretation of the results.

I've got to say I was a bit surprised by Jax's announcement of signing up for the GUE event. In the not so distant past she'd been pretty vocal about her dislike for the way she felt the agency approached things and their lack of willingness to change and allow such things as sidemount configurations.

In my opinion, when you go into a class and you're already at odds with the way things are done it's going to make a class that much more difficult. Thinking that they should be more open to the way you do things, rather than allowing yourself to be open to their way of doing things just seems like a setup for failure.