My own equipment not allowed for Open Water class?

[rhwestfall]

well then....

 

[Boarderguy]

Is 16:1 even within Padi standards? I thought it was near 6:1 or 8:1... hope you enjoy diving and don't let 1 shop sour your impression of an organization that's been doing this for decades and has likely helped to keep it alive by churning out students in mass.

 

[Belzelbub]

Q. What's the student to teacher ratio?
A. 16 students to 1 teacher

I hope you misheard that. 16:1 has got to be a violation of standards. If not, it really should be. There is no way an instructor can keep control of that many students.

I asked why he would say that, and he said that I'm questioning their methods and teaching, and they've been teaching for over 40 years.

You know what? Screw everything about that. If that is a PADI 5-star shop, then I want nothing to do with PADI. I'll pay the $275 in rental fees just to stay the hell away from garbage people and garbage businesses. To treat someone who has money in hand and is asking some basic questions about a possibly dangerous sport, is absolutely unacceptable.

Sounds like you dodged a bullet with that one. Your questions were reasonable. You don’t want to get taught by anyone who would take offense to a potential student asking some questions.

 

[Horgh]

I hope you misheard that. 16:1 has got to be a violation of standards. If not, it really should be. There is no way an instructor can keep control of that many students.

I didn't mishear it. I actually asked about the class size and was told "this time of the year, 16" so then I asked "and how many instructors?" expecting the answer to be 2 or more... I was told 1.

I'm waiting for a call back from PADI customer relations. I'm going scorched earth.

 

[lowwall]

I asked him the following questions:

Q. What's the student to teacher ratio?
A. 16 students to 1 teacher

Q. Do you teach neutrally buoyant?
A. No, because it makes things too complicated, we find it easier to teach students on their knees

Q. How much of buoyancy and trim do you then cover in the class?
A. Two drills, per the PADI standard

Q. Can I bring my own BC and regs, and would that be a problem for any of your skills?
A. Yes, you can, and no, assuming that it doesn't interfere with the class. <-- perfectly fine by me

Q. Do you teach anything beyond the PADI checklist?
A. No, that would be a violation of the rules.
Q. I didn't mean teach 120 ft diving in an OW class, I meant small things like gear overviews, additional trim and buoyancy exercises, things to make new divers more well rounded (this question is directly from the Divers Ready! video)
A. No, but we offer additional classes that offer those things.

Then the owner said to me, "Based on the questions you're asking, it would be better if you were trained by another shop, not us"

This really floored me, because I don't think I asked anything unreasonable and I wasn't confrontational, in fact I made sure to be polite and courteous throughout the conversation. I didn't even ask any of these questions until after we discussed me buying a Henderson wetsuit from them, and mentioning that I already purchased gear a few days before (so existing customer).

I asked why he would say that, and he said that I'm questioning their methods and teaching, and they've been teaching for over 40 years.

You know what? Screw everything about that. If that is a PADI 5-star shop, then I want nothing to do with PADI. I'll pay the $275 in rental fees just to stay the hell away from garbage people and garbage businesses. To treat someone who has money in hand and is asking some basic questions about a possibly dangerous sport, is absolutely unacceptable.

For those curious, the PADI shop in question is Southeastern Divers (Southeastern Divers, Inc.) in Huntsville, AL.

Wow. I will only note that this is on the shop, not PADI. As I noted earlier, the standards are essentially the same for all OW courses, but the shop or instructor has considerable leeway in the implementation. Sounds like these guys want to do the absolute minimum acceptable job. And that's without including the instructor to student ratio violation.

Here's the WRSTC standard (edit: for the open water part of the class). PADI cannot allow a greater number of students than this.

"5.2.2 The maximum number of students for in-water training is eight students per instructor.

Two additional students per certified assistant may be added up to a maximum of 12 students per instructor. Although additional assistants may be used, no additional students may be added to the responsibility of the individual instructor. These ratios are considered maximum and should be reduced if environmental conditions or other factors are not optimum."

 

[NorCalDM]

Here are the standards for student to instructor ratios. 16:1 can only be done with two certified assistants and no children under 12. They may split it into two groups of 8?

 

[MichaelMc]

Then the owner said to me, "Based on the questions you're asking, it would be better if you were trained by another shop, not us"

You might call them back and ask for a recommendation for a shop that teaches off the knees. Try not to say better than you while doing that, or you may not get much of an answer. And you may want to buy air from them someday.

 

[Horgh]

You might call them back and ask for a recommendation for a shop that teaches off the knees. Try not to say better than you while doing that, or you may not get much of an answer. And you may want to buy air from them someday.

I'd rather drag my scrotum through a red ant nest than to talk to that shop again. I just filed a complaint with PADI. I can get my air filled elsewhere.

 

[MichaelMc]

Ha.

As noted, the 16:1 seems legal in the pool.

On gear and rental gear costs, an option is to do chlorinated pool in shop rental gear with one shop and OW dives with another as a referral.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

So interesting turn of events with the PADI shop. I called to ask some questions, namely ones you guys recommended I ask, as well as some recommended by the Divers Ready! YouTube channel. I spoke to (on the phone) with the guy who sold me my mask, snorkel and boots, and who told me he was the main instructor before the instructor who teaches now. In store he wasn't very attentive, but I don't mind the "let the customer take their time" approach.

I asked him the following questions:

Q. What's the student to teacher ratio?
A. 16 students to 1 teacher

Q. Do you teach neutrally buoyant?
A. No, because it makes things too complicated, we find it easier to teach students on their knees

Q. How much of buoyancy and trim do you then cover in the class?
A. Two drills, per the PADI standard

Q. Can I bring my own BC and regs, and would that be a problem for any of your skills?
A. Yes, you can, and no, assuming that it doesn't interfere with the class. <-- perfectly fine by me

Q. Do you teach anything beyond the PADI checklist?
A. No, that would be a violation of the rules.
Q. I didn't mean teach 120 ft diving in an OW class, I meant small things like gear overviews, additional trim and buoyancy exercises, things to make new divers more well rounded (this question is directly from the Divers Ready! video)
A. No, but we offer additional classes that offer those things.

Then the owner said to me, "Based on the questions you're asking, it would be better if you were trained by another shop, not us"

This really floored me, because I don't think I asked anything unreasonable and I wasn't confrontational, in fact I made sure to be polite and courteous throughout the conversation. I didn't even ask any of these questions until after we discussed me buying a Henderson wetsuit from them, and mentioning that I already purchased gear a few days before (so existing customer).

I asked why he would say that, and he said that I'm questioning their methods and teaching, and they've been teaching for over 40 years.

You know what? Screw everything about that. If that is a PADI 5-star shop, then I want nothing to do with PADI. I'll pay the $275 in rental fees just to stay the hell away from garbage people and garbage businesses. To treat someone who has money in hand and is asking some basic questions about a possibly dangerous sport, is absolutely unacceptable.

For those curious, the PADI shop in question is Southeastern Divers (Southeastern Divers, Inc.) in Huntsville, AL.

Sounds like all the effort you are putting into this thread and educating yourself has already paid off from avoiding a disaster of a course. Now imagine you just walked in any ol' LDS and just signed up with the ill placed trust that "hey they are professionals, so it will be a good course and no different than any other place."

I'd rather drag my scrotum through a red ant nest than to talk to that shop again.

The placement of "again" matters as I sure hope you are not speaking from personal experience.

I just filed a complaint with PADI.

I hope that gets addressed. The 16:1 ratio is insane. Let's say you had 8 hours of pool time. You'd have spent around 7.5 hours on your knees blowing bubbles waiting your turn and only 30 minutes doing something. This isn't exact of course, but you get the idea. Considering you likely would have less pool time which is really where students learn to dive, you think you'd gain much proficiency in 30 minutes? Now imagine that you were set up to be neutrally buoyant (and preferably trimmed) the entire session. Then during the entire time you'd be practicing. Neutral buoyancy is key, and why it gets punted down the road is beyond me.