My own equipment not allowed for Open Water class?

[Horgh]

Sounds like all the effort you are putting into this thread and educating yourself has already paid off from avoiding a disaster of a course. Now imagine you just walked in any ol' LDS and just signed up with the ill placed trust that "hey they are professionals, so it will be a good course and no different than any other place."

That's exactly why I joined this forum after reading it for many weeks, and why I started this thread. I like to do my research ahead of time.

The placement of "again" matters as I sure hope you are not speaking from personal experience.

I spent most of my life outside or in the country, it wasn't intentional, but unfortunately I do know it's like to sit on a few of those red buggers. Would not recommend

I hope that gets addressed. The 16:1 ratio is insane. Let's say you had 8 hours of pool time. You'd have spent around 7.5 hours on your knees blowing bubbles waiting your turn and only 30 minutes doing something. This isn't exact of course, but you get the idea. Considering you likely would have less pool time which is really where students learn to dive, you think you'd gain much proficiency in 30 minutes? Now imagine that you were set up to be neutrally buoyant (and preferably trimmed) the entire session. Then during the entire time you'd be practicing. Neutral buoyancy is key, and why it gets punted down the road is beyond me.

That is EXACTLY right, I just imagined myself kneeling at the bottom of the pool for most of the course, watching others do their drills. Doesn't sound educational, nor fun.

 

[Doby45]

That is EXACTLY right, I just imagined myself kneeling at the bottom of the pool for most of the course, watching others do their drills. Doesn't sound educational, nor fun.

You will need to find a private instructor. If not, this is exactly what you will be doing. Once again, the pie in the sky training that people are discussing here, really do not happen in larger class environments. Might it happen somewhere in the country, sure. But, for what you are wanting to do, how you are wanting to do it, you will need to find a private instructor. I can 100% assure you that the PADI location you called, heard your questions and thought "This is one of them internet educated fellas". The guy on the phone probably felt like his "authority" as an INSTRUCTOR was being questioned and he got all butt hurt. As you can see in this forum, that happens a lot with egos in the dive industry.

 

[Horgh]

You will need to find a private instructor. If not, this is exactly what you will be doing. Once again, the pie in the sky training that people are discussing here, really do not happen in larger class environments. Might it happen somewhere in the country, sure. But, for what you are wanting to do, how you are wanting to do it, you will need to find a private instructor. I can 100% assure you that the PADI location you called, heard your questions and thought "This is one of them internet educated fellas". The guy on the phone probably felt like his "authority" as an INSTRUCTOR was being questioned and he got all butt hurt. As you can see in this forum, that happens a lot with egos in the dive industry.

You may be right. I'm going to see how my Try SCUBA goes with the SSI shop, if I like the main instructor (who I haven't met yet), I may just pony up the cash for the rental fees. The other place on my radar (ScubaVentures in Birmingham) is $50 less but almost an hour farther away, but it did come recommended by the shop in Atlanta (DiveVentures). So I have that as a backup, though I haven't tried asking them any questions yet

My other option is a 3 day trip to Atlanta, I'd be paying for a hotel, but at this point money is taking a back seat to actually finding a good instructor.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

You will need to find a private instructor. If not, this is exactly what you will be doing. Once again, the pie in the sky training that people are discussing here, really do not happen in larger class environments. Might it happen somewhere in the country, sure. But, for what you are wanting to do, how you are wanting to do it, you will need to find a private instructor. I can 100% assure you that the PADI location you called, heard your questions and thought "This is one of them internet educated fellas". The guy on the phone probably felt like his "authority" as an INSTRUCTOR was being questioned and he got all butt hurt. As you can see in this forum, that happens a lot with egos in the dive industry.

If the OP was in the Seattle area, I'd be sending him to Eight Diving – A Seattle Diving Company and Dive Shop (GUE/NAUI) or Home | OTH Diving | Lacey, WA (SSI) as they DO teach this way, but they are also more quality focused, limiting courses to 4 students. Their retention rate for con ed is quite high, as opposed to the mills that teach on the knees where it is open water and done.

While larger class environments is the norm, there are PLENTY of exceptions all over the country. With RAID, while it isn't guaranteed that a student will never be placed on their knees, it is a guarantee that skill evaluation must be performed neutrally buoyant. Here's a pic of their dive centers from diveraid.com.

And what do we know? There's this RAID shop opening in Alabama: AES Dives Alabama (251)721-9111. I'd suggest to the OP dropping them a line.

On the other side of the country, there's Ryan @custureri and @LandonL of Aqui Watersports (Home - AQUI Water Sports - Highest Rated Snorkel & Dive Operator in South Florida). I'm sure there are more all over. So the OP has options. Maybe a bit of a drive, but quality often comes at the expense of convenience.

 

[Pipehorse]

So interesting turn of events with the PADI shop. I called to ask some questions, namely ones you guys recommended I ask, as well as some recommended by the Divers Ready! YouTube channel. I spoke to (on the phone) with the guy who sold me my mask, snorkel and boots, and who told me he was the main instructor before the instructor who teaches now. In store he wasn't very attentive, but I don't mind the "let the customer take their time" approach.

I asked him the following questions:

Q. What's the student to teacher ratio?
A. 16 students to 1 teacher

Sounds less than optimal, would you want to be in a class of that ratio? Strike one against them.

Q. Do you teach neutrally buoyant?
A. No, because it makes things too complicated, we find it easier to teach students on their knees

I think previously in the thread you stated you wanted to work neutral buoyancy and trim immediately. Strike two against them.

Q. How much of buoyancy and trim do you then cover in the class?
A. Two drills, per the PADI standard

Again this doesn't seem to jive with what you were looking for? Strike three against them.

Q. Can I bring my own BC and regs, and would that be a problem for any of your skills?
A. Yes, you can, and no, assuming that it doesn't interfere with the class. <-- perfectly fine by me

This is how you started the thread, you want use your own gear for OW class. Plus one for them, since they seemed willing to allow it.

Q. Do you teach anything beyond the PADI checklist?
A. No, that would be a violation of the rules.
Q. I didn't mean teach 120 ft diving in an OW class, I meant small things like gear overviews, additional trim and buoyancy exercises, things to make new divers more well rounded (this question is directly from the Divers Ready! video)
A. No, but we offer additional classes that offer those things.

Seems like you want something for free here and are not happy with the structure of how they do their OW class. Straight up they want to be paid for teaching small things like gear overviews, additional trim and buoyancy exercise. But the hell with that, they are not offering what you want or what you think should get in an OW class, strike four against them.

Then the owner said to me, "Based on the questions you're asking, it would be better if you were trained by another shop, not us"

Considering you had bought equipment from the shop and were an existing customer, it would seem that the owner is not a good example of friendly customer service. Nevertheless, seems like he did you a favor? Except for using your own gear he pretty much did not have the answers you were looking for. Would you have signed up for the course at his shop if he said, "so when do you want to start"? It doesn't seem like it from what you have posted here. Like it or not, that shop/owner/instructor is under no obligation to teach you OW. Just a guess, if PADI does contact him about your complaint, all he need say is you wanted to be taught outside what was on the PADI checklist, thusly you would not be a good fit with his shop, case closed.

So without dipping a toe in the water, you have decided that jacket style bcds are not for you, that you need to have a long hose for the octopus, that you need to learn trim and buoyancy before everybody in a multi person class, and you are already filing complaints against shop owners with PADI.

Perhaps you should pursue finding a private instructor at private rates.

 

[SlugLife]

Most of the Q&A I might put up with for the purposes of a suboptimal and inexpensive introduction into SCUBA, which you then polish those skills later with Advanced Open Water other subsequent classes. However, the deal killer for me is:

Q. What's the student to teacher ratio?
A. 16 students to 1 teacher

In a few shops I've trained at, or asked, the maximum is 1 instructor, 1 assistant, 8 students. That way there's at worst 4-to-1 ratio of students, to people keeping those students safe. To be generous, lets say they had an assistant as well. That's still an 8-to-1 ratio of completely inexperienced divers, to trained professionals.

Then the owner said to me, "Based on the questions you're asking, it would be better if you were trained by another shop, not us"

This really floored me, because I don't think I asked anything unreasonable and I wasn't confrontational, in fact I made sure to be polite and courteous throughout the conversation. I didn't even ask any of these questions until after we discussed me buying a Henderson wetsuit from them, and mentioning that I already purchased gear a few days before (so existing customer).

Obviously, I can't listen to the phone-call. However, the exact questions you listed are generally considered proper questions.

Rather than him thinking you were unreasonable and confrontational, my take is he noticed you were an informed consumer, and he knows their product is very low quality.

 

[MichaelMc]

that you need to have a long hose for the octopus, that you need to learn trim and buoyancy before everybody in a multi person class

You might be overstating the facts. If by long you mean 7'.
And I believe along with, not before. As the standards do say.

 

[Horgh]

So without dipping a toe in the water, you have decided that jacket style bcds are not for you, that you need to have a long hose for the octopus, that you need to learn trim and buoyancy before everybody in a multi person class, and you are already filing complaints against shop owners with PADI.

Perhaps you should pursue finding a private instructor at private rates.

That's a fair assessment of the situation, but please point out where I'm wrong. What's the argument for jacket BCDs? What's the argument for short hose and octo donation? I'm not saying there isn't one, I'm saying from my research so far, I haven't read any compelling ones. But since you have a lot of dives under your belt, I'm truly curious as to your thoughts on this.

As for filing a complaint with PADI, I again don't see how I was in the wrong. Some people only learn when their hand is smacked.

And yes, I will look around for a private instructor. Actual money was never the issue, I just like to get what I pay for.

 

[Horgh]

For those wondering, this is the video I watched before asking some of those questions. I didn't actually ask most of the recommended ones because the guy on the phone was clearly not in the mood to talk to me. I have no intention of "grilling" an instructor and/or challenging him in any way, I just want to know who'll be teaching me not to suicide myself under water.

 

[Belzelbub]

That's a fair assessment of the situation, but please point out where I'm wrong. What's the argument for jacket BCDs?

BC style is mainly personal preference and style of diving. For single tank, pretty much any BC will work. Some prefer BP/W, some prefer back inflate, some prefer jacket. You really don’t know which you prefer yet. Despite all the enthusiastic BP/W supporters on here, the other choices are just fine for most recreational divers.

As for filing a complaint with PADI, I again don't see how I was in the wrong. Some people only learn when their hand is smacked.

Yep. No issue at all with you reporting them for a standards violation. Not sure what will become of it, but at least you alerted them of it.

My first OW course was pretty much just one violation of standards. Zero pool work. The only time I actually got wet was in about 8-10 fsw in a calm cove off the side of a bridge. That may have met the definition of confined water dives, but we may have done two dives max. I think using just one tank. Zero OW dives for me, but my card arrived in the mail anyway. I didn’t know that this was a standards violation, was tougher to find out back then.

As a result, I was a certified diver that really wasn’t comfortable with what I was taught. I understood the concepts, I just needed more practice. So I took second OW course a few years later.