Stone
Contributor
How many dives did you do with your Halcyon DIR rig?
My Impression of the Back Inflate vs. Jacket Style vs. BP/Wings Debate
- Thread starter SeaJay
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SeaJay
Contributor
I finally got to do another bp/wing dive. Hmmmm...
I thought about just starting a new thread with this new information, so as to save people from having to read through a whopping eleven pages of stuff, but I figured that everyone knows how to get to the "last page" quickly and easily. And since this really is pertinent to this thread, I figured I'd pull it back up to the top.
I did another bp/wing dive two days ago, and for the past 48 hours have been trying to figure out a way to put all of this together for you guys to read. But I think in the interest of keeping this enormous thread at least a little shorter, I'm just going to jump right in here...
Firstly, getting a hold of a bp/wing to try (again) is rediculously difficult to do. After much complaining on several boards about it, someone finally told me that there was a dive shop about an hour and a half away from me that was owned by a guy who dove with one and was willing to let people rent it. After months of talking about it, I was finally able to get up there and do just that. The bp was a Dive Rite stainless backplate, with plain-Jane 2" webbing. There was only one buckle on the whole rig; the one in front on my waist, actually slightly cocked to one side so as to allow for the crotch strap. There was one D-ring to the outside of each of my pectoral muscles. I dove with a single AL80, with a 9 lb Dive Rite STA and a pair of tank straps. The wing was a Dive Rite Trek Wing. The whole rig was set up by the owner of the shop, who is not DIR but who dives with a bp/wing and 7 foot hose.
I also rented a plain-Jane Mares jacket-style BC with no weight integration as a constant by which to compare the bp/wing.
I did four consecutive 10-15 minute dives to a max depth of 25 feet, starting in no current and ending the last dive in a 3 knot "everything on me is vibrating" current. I switched BCD's on each dive, so I dove each twice. Temp: 75 degrees or so. I dive with a 3/2 mil usually, my Mares Quattro fins, and a Scubapro Fino mask with a black skirt.
My first dive was in the jacket so as to remind myself, "Hey, this is what I'm comparing the bp/wing against." I remembered a few major things: 1. I hate weight belts. It took me about 15 seconds to say, "Screw this" and take off the belt and instead place the eight pounds of lead weight in the pockets of my BC. 2. "Torso length" adjusters (adjustments on the front of my chest) I am not a fan of. I find that often times, once you get the BC wet and then come out of the water with a wet rig and a heavy tank, they will pull themselves open and you'll find yourself having to readjust them when you get back in the water. If I bought a BC with torso length adjusters, I would have to somehow find a way to make them relatively permanent. 3. This jacket style BC, unlike many other jacket style BC's I've tried, had no back plate or hard structure in it, save for a very small tank attachment point. This meant that the tank hung low when I was walking around out of the water, and sat high when I was at depth, often whacking me in the back of the head. I am not a fan of BC's with no hard structure in them. I found the same problem, by the way, with the Transpac many dives ago... I love that BC, but it's lack of any kind of hard structure inside of it means that tank stability is not as good as it could be... And while I found no "tank roll" from the unit, I did find that it seemed to float my tank either too high or too low, and sometimes both on the same dive. I like structure, thank you.
So after ten minutes or so in the water, I hopped out and changed over my gear.
Some points to note before I go any further... If I do say so myself, I've gotten really good at buoyancy over the past few months. I've dived so many different BCD's that I cant even remember them all... As such, I've been exposed to the good, the bad, and the ugly over a very short period of time. The result is that I've learned very quickly how to COPE. And at this point, I'm pretty sure that if someone threw me out of a moving boat with a Hefty bag and a cinder block tied around one ankle, I could maintain buoyancy and even trim quite easily. My point is that I have not found anything really HORRIBLE recently... And your mileage may vary depending on your skills, whether they be better or worse than my own.
Another thing to note is that while I spent virtually no time whatsoever in donning that jacket and making some "on the fly" adjustments to the BC for fit, the dive shop owner and I spent probably 45 minutes setting up the bp/wing for me. The process was tedious and lengthy, requiring me to don the bp/wing and have him look for a time, then I'd have to remove the gear while he adjusted the straps. What a pain in the neck! Someone asked in another thread, "Why is it that bp/wings are so often not rented?" Another asked, "Why doesn't PADI teach these bp/wings from the beginning?" Well, now you know why. Think of how long it would take to have a dive shop clerk set up a dozen people with the proper gear if they were all diving bp/wings...
On the other hand, the reality of this particular situation, though, is that I was looking to buy my own gear... So setup, however long it took, would be a one-time thing for me to do. After that, the rig would always fit properly and that issue would be gone. In fact, the idea that the bp/wing rig (with DIR harness, as in "continuous loop") would not come out of adjustment during the walk down to the water, would be an advantage.
Donning the bp/wing is a little odd... Even setup is a little odd. Whereas even the cheap jacket style BC's have a "tank loop" so that you can hang the BC on the tank before tightening up the tank strap, the bp/wing did not have that. Not that it was really a big deal, on this dock aside a freshwater river... But if I were on a rocking boat in the open ocean as I often am, I'd really miss the tank loop. So that's a feature that I did not like. Of course, the bp/wing is JUST a bp/wing, so it can be added, if I really wanted it, which I would. Another thing is that whereas the cheap Mares jacket that I rented had a handle on the min-hard thingie that attached to the tank (for ease of carrying and donning) the back plate was missing this nice feature. Of course, it was the DIVE RITE plate that was missing the handle... The FredT plates HAVE a handle cut into them already. Yes, this is something that I'd want. While lifting my bp/wing/tank up by the valve is appropriate sometimes, I found the handle to be really nice other times... And like I said, something I'd want, especially on a rocking boat.
In the water, the bp/wing virtually disappeared, as many people have said. I really enjoyed the stability offered by the plate, and would not purchase a BC that had no hard structure in it. However, there are a lot of BC's that have a hard structure in it besides this backplate/wing setup. The SeaQuest Pro QD, the Scubapro Classic, the SeaQuest Black Diamond and Balance, and many other high-end BC's all have hard plate structures in them. My point is that there's no question that I prefer the hard plates over a soft pack... But that does not mean that my choices are limited to a bp/wing.
My chest area was the most open it's ever been, thanks to the bp/wing setup. I had no buckles, adjusters, clips, or anything hanging or dangling from me at all. However, any BC on the market can also have all of that stuff trimmed off, and esentially be the same non-adjustable unit easily, just like a bp/wing if the diver so desired. Again, nice, but not unique to a bp/wing.
There was no air bladder or fabric on my front, either, which was nice... Of course, this sounds terrific, until you realize that the only reason it's not on your front is because it's on your back instead. So what if my body was no longer surrounded by an inflatable jacket? Now I had this balloon on my back. Was there a difference? To be perfectly honest, not really. Some may prefer one over the other... But I couldn't really care less. The advantage of moving everything to the back is opposed by the disadvantage that now the rig is "picky" as to where the weight placement goes for trim. I've found that with jacket style BC's, they don't seem to be really picky as to where you place your weight... But back inflates, including bp/wing setups, definitely do care. So if you are going to get that "stuff" off your chest and just do straps-only, then great... But the price you are going to pay is having a "picky" rig that needs to be balanced properly... And that means that you might have to make some adjustments every time you get in the water, as your trim could change according to fresh or salt, what gear you are bringing with you, what thickness of wetsuit you're wearing, etc. I truly believe that's why instructors generally use jackets to teach in... Because they can wear too much weight (so they can give some to an underweighted student), spend an infinite amount of time at the surface, head-up and instructing without "kicking," and because jackets give you a lot of buoyancy available to you (there's a lot of bladder, and it's wrapped around you.) By comparison, a bp/wing really needs to be properly weighted and trimmed, has to be properly fitted, and has a variety of wings available for it to allow the diver to customize the size of the wing; a real plus, since bp/wing divers always want to minimize the size of their wings. Why? Because as soon as they get big, it's like having a balloon on your back. Jackets don't have this problem, as the "balloon" is wrapped around you, adding stability to the bladder, and allowing it to have more lift. Even the most basic jackets I've tried all have much more lift than the wings, unless you get into the really huge wings that nobody uses unless they absolultely have to.
One thing, too, that I have to comment on about the bp/wing... The 2" crotch strap that I used on this DIR-esque rig... The 2" crotch strap was made of the same stiff webbing that was on the rest of the rig... And I did not like it. My thighs are very thick and muscular, and on more than one occassion I felt that 2" crotch strap pinch or stab the skin of my inner thigh, even through my wetsuit. The 1" crotch strap of the Dive Rite Transpac II, however, was virtually unnoticable. I also understand that some people simply use a softer webbing for a crotch strap, which gives a little and is more comfortable. I dunno... I didn't get to try one of those. All I can tell you is that I did not like the 2" stiff crotch strap that I dove with.
Another thing, too... I found that diving a bp/wing WITHOUT a crotch strap really isn't an option, because the rig relies on the straps staying taught across your body for stability. As soon as I ditched the crotch strap, it seemed to have significantly less stability. On many other rigs, however, the lack of a crotch strap was not a problem, since there was, in many cases, a "semi-hard plate" that wrapped under my arms and around my upper ribs and lats (the "V" of my back) which held the BC in place. This semi-hard structure was missing from bp/wing setups, obviously, and therefore I found that removing the crotch strap made the fit go all haywire.
Oh yeah... Last point, which I found last time and I will reiterate... My diving showed me, once again, that I do not want to dive without any ditchable weight. There seems to be an ongoing push on this board for people to try to get the "right" amount of weight right in their rig, without any ditchable weight at all. For example, if they normally require 15 lbs of weight, in diving their favorite spot, then they'll go for a stainless steel backplate (at 6 lbs) and a "heavy" STA (at 9 lbs) for a total of 15 lbs, and be very happy to dive with no ditchable weight at all. Because of this, there is also quite a number of threads going on about whether to dive steel tanks or aluminum tanks (with the general belief being that steel tanks weigh more) so that you can minimize the amount of weight on your weight belt. This might be a great idea in many instances... For example, let's say you're diving in Ginnie Springs... You have a bladder failure, such as a stuck open exhaust valve, a hole or puncture in the BC, a torn or ripped, BC, etc... Most people who dive with no ditchable weight say, "No problem... Swim up the rig and get out of the water." Well, that might work in a spring... But I can assure you that in the open ocean, if that happened to you and you surfaced, and found yourself seperated from the boat, you would not want to be in that situation. At that point, your only option would be to either sink or ditch your rig (and let it sink). What a choice. Of course, if you let it sink without you, then now you're floating in a sea indefinitely with no buoyancy aide... Not good.
...Which is why people who dive bp/wings make such a big deal about pull dumps... If that thing sticks open, you can't inflate it to surface... And now you've got a problem. If it sticks open for a jacket or back inflate user, he ditches his weight and gets buoyant anyway. Deco stops can be done on the anchor line or whatever... In caving, there is no anchor line.
Oh, one more thing... Secondary regs... When diving a standard secondary reg attached "somewhere in the body triangle" (according to PADI), the hose is routed from your first stage behind your head, under your arm, and attached to your chest. With an integrated octo, it's part of your power inflator. My opinion? Couldn't care less either way. I like the "one less hose" point, but don't find a standard octo to be in the way anyway. Necklaces, on the other hand, I find very much in the way. Try looking down at your feet while wearing a necklace... Your primary and secondary regs interfere with each other. Bid deal? Nope. And frankly, if I were diving a cave, I'd be diving with a 7 foot hose so that I could escape single file in an OOA situation. I'd also route the 7 foot hose DIR style. However, I think I'd avoid a necklace if I could. And in open water, I'll go without the 7 footer, thank you. Too much to get tangled. But I couldn't care less if my octo was integrated or not.
That said, let me also tell you this... Dive Rite pull dumps suck. They feel like they're going to pull off. They require a lot of pull to get them to work. I hear of them breaking all the time. No surprise, based on what I saw. Even when they do work right, they're slow, not really in the right position, and they distort the wing too much to function properly when you pull on them. To boot, they don't allow you to "feel" the air coming out of the wing when you pull on them, so it's difficult to judge how much air is coming out, or even whether or not they're working properly when wearing a bp/wing. None of these issues were there with the high-end jacket or back inflate BC's that I've tried. All of them had simple, solid-feeling mechanisms attached securely to the BC, which dumped air efficiently and effectively, and allowed you to "feel" the air escaping, so you could accurately judge.
Want a bottom line opinion?
Scubapro Classic (which has an integrated backplate), please... With an Air II and an air integrated, hoseless computer mounted on my LEFT wrist. (I'm right handed, so it'll get beat up less.) This configuration would be perfect for most of the open ocean and river dives I do.
If I was diving in a cave, I would not do it without a 7 foot hose and a buddy with the same rig as mine, with a canister light for long burn times. That 7 foot hose would mean funky routing, which would mean that there'd be a huge advantage in getting the bladder off my chest and onto my back. Then I'd have to trim the weight everywhere... And I'd end up with a bp and wings. I'd probably also forgo the air integrated computer and instead opt for a bottom timer (sound familiar?) because I could be more effective with deco times and have less possible problems in the electronics by "planning my dive and diving my plan." This wouldn't work for me in an open ocean dive, as a typical wreck dive would almost never be predictable as far as depth goes... Maybe I'd spend time on the deck of the wreck at 80'... Maybe I'd spend time checking out the bottom of the wreck at 110'... Maybe I'd chase a sea turtle to 40'... Who knows? Can't easily plan for that without seriously sactificing the enjoyment of the dive. In a cave, however, depth and time is very predicatable, so a bottom timer, I think, would be the simplest way to go.
So why would I choose the Classic again? Well... Because if I were lost at sea, I don't think I'd want anything else. Because I like the jacket's floatation characteristics, and it's ability to need very little trimming. Beucase it would work well to integrate my power inflator and secondary, and get rid of one more hose. Because it would work well with an air integrated, hoseless computer. Because it's easy to put on and easy to assemble on a rocking boat. Because it's easy to adjust and comfortable for that walk across the beach. And that's the kind of diving I do.
If I were diving in the caves, caverns, or springs, I think I'd fid it worth the extra time and effort to adjust the straps over a period of several dives to get a perfect fit, including the crotch strap. I think that I would not care that my straps had no padding, because I wouldn't have to hike it across the beach. Instead, I'd find solace knowing that if my straps got cut or damaged, I could replace them for cheap. I think that I'd prefer a long hose for getting out of tight spots. I think I'd be more affected by having part of the bladder up front, and I'd want it moved to the back.
So that's it...
Now, that said... I have a theory on why people are so passionate about their dive equipment choices... I believe it's because we are all different divers, of different body fat contents, different sizes, weights, etc... And all of us are diving in different environments, in different temperatures, with different wetsuits (or drysuits) and with different water salinity. We're even diving different tanks... Some of us use steel, and some of us use aluminum... Heck, even the same tank can have different characteristics just from brand name to brand name. I've dived an AL80 tank that ranged from being 16 lbs negative in the water, to diving an empty AL80 tank that was 2 lbs positive in the water. Of course, if it had been salt water, even those characteristics would have changed.
So please understand why everyone here seems to have a different opinion...
Me? I'm buying the Classic and getting a few "whiz-bang" features which aide to cimplify my gear. With the Classic and an Air II and a Vytec, I'll have just two hoses, and the simplest system I know, which can handle any situation I am in. But I can see the lure of a bp/wing. There are certain characteristics that it has that could be very useful in some situations. Also, I could effectively and safely dive that rig in any situation... But I would rather dive a Classic rig in open ocean, which could not be safely used in caves. But hey, that's personal choice.
I didnt like the lack of padding on the backplate, for those long treks to the water. I did not like the "homemade" appearance and fit/finish of the bp/wing. I did not find the unit any more streamlined that the best "over the counter" BC's out there... It just feels that way because everything's now on your back instead of integrated around your body. I did not like the bp/wing's "finickyness" of trim. I felt that all of the adjustablity and "pieced together-ness" of the bp/wings made for more of a pain in the neck than an advantage, which is complete customizablity.
So that's it... Personal choice... And I'm sticking to that. And my Classic. Even if it's not "cool."
I thought about just starting a new thread with this new information, so as to save people from having to read through a whopping eleven pages of stuff, but I figured that everyone knows how to get to the "last page" quickly and easily. And since this really is pertinent to this thread, I figured I'd pull it back up to the top.
I did another bp/wing dive two days ago, and for the past 48 hours have been trying to figure out a way to put all of this together for you guys to read. But I think in the interest of keeping this enormous thread at least a little shorter, I'm just going to jump right in here...
Firstly, getting a hold of a bp/wing to try (again) is rediculously difficult to do. After much complaining on several boards about it, someone finally told me that there was a dive shop about an hour and a half away from me that was owned by a guy who dove with one and was willing to let people rent it. After months of talking about it, I was finally able to get up there and do just that. The bp was a Dive Rite stainless backplate, with plain-Jane 2" webbing. There was only one buckle on the whole rig; the one in front on my waist, actually slightly cocked to one side so as to allow for the crotch strap. There was one D-ring to the outside of each of my pectoral muscles. I dove with a single AL80, with a 9 lb Dive Rite STA and a pair of tank straps. The wing was a Dive Rite Trek Wing. The whole rig was set up by the owner of the shop, who is not DIR but who dives with a bp/wing and 7 foot hose.
I also rented a plain-Jane Mares jacket-style BC with no weight integration as a constant by which to compare the bp/wing.
I did four consecutive 10-15 minute dives to a max depth of 25 feet, starting in no current and ending the last dive in a 3 knot "everything on me is vibrating" current. I switched BCD's on each dive, so I dove each twice. Temp: 75 degrees or so. I dive with a 3/2 mil usually, my Mares Quattro fins, and a Scubapro Fino mask with a black skirt.
My first dive was in the jacket so as to remind myself, "Hey, this is what I'm comparing the bp/wing against." I remembered a few major things: 1. I hate weight belts. It took me about 15 seconds to say, "Screw this" and take off the belt and instead place the eight pounds of lead weight in the pockets of my BC. 2. "Torso length" adjusters (adjustments on the front of my chest) I am not a fan of. I find that often times, once you get the BC wet and then come out of the water with a wet rig and a heavy tank, they will pull themselves open and you'll find yourself having to readjust them when you get back in the water. If I bought a BC with torso length adjusters, I would have to somehow find a way to make them relatively permanent. 3. This jacket style BC, unlike many other jacket style BC's I've tried, had no back plate or hard structure in it, save for a very small tank attachment point. This meant that the tank hung low when I was walking around out of the water, and sat high when I was at depth, often whacking me in the back of the head. I am not a fan of BC's with no hard structure in them. I found the same problem, by the way, with the Transpac many dives ago... I love that BC, but it's lack of any kind of hard structure inside of it means that tank stability is not as good as it could be... And while I found no "tank roll" from the unit, I did find that it seemed to float my tank either too high or too low, and sometimes both on the same dive. I like structure, thank you.
So after ten minutes or so in the water, I hopped out and changed over my gear.
Some points to note before I go any further... If I do say so myself, I've gotten really good at buoyancy over the past few months. I've dived so many different BCD's that I cant even remember them all... As such, I've been exposed to the good, the bad, and the ugly over a very short period of time. The result is that I've learned very quickly how to COPE. And at this point, I'm pretty sure that if someone threw me out of a moving boat with a Hefty bag and a cinder block tied around one ankle, I could maintain buoyancy and even trim quite easily. My point is that I have not found anything really HORRIBLE recently... And your mileage may vary depending on your skills, whether they be better or worse than my own.
Another thing to note is that while I spent virtually no time whatsoever in donning that jacket and making some "on the fly" adjustments to the BC for fit, the dive shop owner and I spent probably 45 minutes setting up the bp/wing for me. The process was tedious and lengthy, requiring me to don the bp/wing and have him look for a time, then I'd have to remove the gear while he adjusted the straps. What a pain in the neck! Someone asked in another thread, "Why is it that bp/wings are so often not rented?" Another asked, "Why doesn't PADI teach these bp/wings from the beginning?" Well, now you know why. Think of how long it would take to have a dive shop clerk set up a dozen people with the proper gear if they were all diving bp/wings...
On the other hand, the reality of this particular situation, though, is that I was looking to buy my own gear... So setup, however long it took, would be a one-time thing for me to do. After that, the rig would always fit properly and that issue would be gone. In fact, the idea that the bp/wing rig (with DIR harness, as in "continuous loop") would not come out of adjustment during the walk down to the water, would be an advantage.
Donning the bp/wing is a little odd... Even setup is a little odd. Whereas even the cheap jacket style BC's have a "tank loop" so that you can hang the BC on the tank before tightening up the tank strap, the bp/wing did not have that. Not that it was really a big deal, on this dock aside a freshwater river... But if I were on a rocking boat in the open ocean as I often am, I'd really miss the tank loop. So that's a feature that I did not like. Of course, the bp/wing is JUST a bp/wing, so it can be added, if I really wanted it, which I would. Another thing is that whereas the cheap Mares jacket that I rented had a handle on the min-hard thingie that attached to the tank (for ease of carrying and donning) the back plate was missing this nice feature. Of course, it was the DIVE RITE plate that was missing the handle... The FredT plates HAVE a handle cut into them already. Yes, this is something that I'd want. While lifting my bp/wing/tank up by the valve is appropriate sometimes, I found the handle to be really nice other times... And like I said, something I'd want, especially on a rocking boat.
In the water, the bp/wing virtually disappeared, as many people have said. I really enjoyed the stability offered by the plate, and would not purchase a BC that had no hard structure in it. However, there are a lot of BC's that have a hard structure in it besides this backplate/wing setup. The SeaQuest Pro QD, the Scubapro Classic, the SeaQuest Black Diamond and Balance, and many other high-end BC's all have hard plate structures in them. My point is that there's no question that I prefer the hard plates over a soft pack... But that does not mean that my choices are limited to a bp/wing.
My chest area was the most open it's ever been, thanks to the bp/wing setup. I had no buckles, adjusters, clips, or anything hanging or dangling from me at all. However, any BC on the market can also have all of that stuff trimmed off, and esentially be the same non-adjustable unit easily, just like a bp/wing if the diver so desired. Again, nice, but not unique to a bp/wing.
There was no air bladder or fabric on my front, either, which was nice... Of course, this sounds terrific, until you realize that the only reason it's not on your front is because it's on your back instead. So what if my body was no longer surrounded by an inflatable jacket? Now I had this balloon on my back. Was there a difference? To be perfectly honest, not really. Some may prefer one over the other... But I couldn't really care less. The advantage of moving everything to the back is opposed by the disadvantage that now the rig is "picky" as to where the weight placement goes for trim. I've found that with jacket style BC's, they don't seem to be really picky as to where you place your weight... But back inflates, including bp/wing setups, definitely do care. So if you are going to get that "stuff" off your chest and just do straps-only, then great... But the price you are going to pay is having a "picky" rig that needs to be balanced properly... And that means that you might have to make some adjustments every time you get in the water, as your trim could change according to fresh or salt, what gear you are bringing with you, what thickness of wetsuit you're wearing, etc. I truly believe that's why instructors generally use jackets to teach in... Because they can wear too much weight (so they can give some to an underweighted student), spend an infinite amount of time at the surface, head-up and instructing without "kicking," and because jackets give you a lot of buoyancy available to you (there's a lot of bladder, and it's wrapped around you.) By comparison, a bp/wing really needs to be properly weighted and trimmed, has to be properly fitted, and has a variety of wings available for it to allow the diver to customize the size of the wing; a real plus, since bp/wing divers always want to minimize the size of their wings. Why? Because as soon as they get big, it's like having a balloon on your back. Jackets don't have this problem, as the "balloon" is wrapped around you, adding stability to the bladder, and allowing it to have more lift. Even the most basic jackets I've tried all have much more lift than the wings, unless you get into the really huge wings that nobody uses unless they absolultely have to.
One thing, too, that I have to comment on about the bp/wing... The 2" crotch strap that I used on this DIR-esque rig... The 2" crotch strap was made of the same stiff webbing that was on the rest of the rig... And I did not like it. My thighs are very thick and muscular, and on more than one occassion I felt that 2" crotch strap pinch or stab the skin of my inner thigh, even through my wetsuit. The 1" crotch strap of the Dive Rite Transpac II, however, was virtually unnoticable. I also understand that some people simply use a softer webbing for a crotch strap, which gives a little and is more comfortable. I dunno... I didn't get to try one of those. All I can tell you is that I did not like the 2" stiff crotch strap that I dove with.
Another thing, too... I found that diving a bp/wing WITHOUT a crotch strap really isn't an option, because the rig relies on the straps staying taught across your body for stability. As soon as I ditched the crotch strap, it seemed to have significantly less stability. On many other rigs, however, the lack of a crotch strap was not a problem, since there was, in many cases, a "semi-hard plate" that wrapped under my arms and around my upper ribs and lats (the "V" of my back) which held the BC in place. This semi-hard structure was missing from bp/wing setups, obviously, and therefore I found that removing the crotch strap made the fit go all haywire.
Oh yeah... Last point, which I found last time and I will reiterate... My diving showed me, once again, that I do not want to dive without any ditchable weight. There seems to be an ongoing push on this board for people to try to get the "right" amount of weight right in their rig, without any ditchable weight at all. For example, if they normally require 15 lbs of weight, in diving their favorite spot, then they'll go for a stainless steel backplate (at 6 lbs) and a "heavy" STA (at 9 lbs) for a total of 15 lbs, and be very happy to dive with no ditchable weight at all. Because of this, there is also quite a number of threads going on about whether to dive steel tanks or aluminum tanks (with the general belief being that steel tanks weigh more) so that you can minimize the amount of weight on your weight belt. This might be a great idea in many instances... For example, let's say you're diving in Ginnie Springs... You have a bladder failure, such as a stuck open exhaust valve, a hole or puncture in the BC, a torn or ripped, BC, etc... Most people who dive with no ditchable weight say, "No problem... Swim up the rig and get out of the water." Well, that might work in a spring... But I can assure you that in the open ocean, if that happened to you and you surfaced, and found yourself seperated from the boat, you would not want to be in that situation. At that point, your only option would be to either sink or ditch your rig (and let it sink). What a choice. Of course, if you let it sink without you, then now you're floating in a sea indefinitely with no buoyancy aide... Not good.
...Which is why people who dive bp/wings make such a big deal about pull dumps... If that thing sticks open, you can't inflate it to surface... And now you've got a problem. If it sticks open for a jacket or back inflate user, he ditches his weight and gets buoyant anyway. Deco stops can be done on the anchor line or whatever... In caving, there is no anchor line.
Oh, one more thing... Secondary regs... When diving a standard secondary reg attached "somewhere in the body triangle" (according to PADI), the hose is routed from your first stage behind your head, under your arm, and attached to your chest. With an integrated octo, it's part of your power inflator. My opinion? Couldn't care less either way. I like the "one less hose" point, but don't find a standard octo to be in the way anyway. Necklaces, on the other hand, I find very much in the way. Try looking down at your feet while wearing a necklace... Your primary and secondary regs interfere with each other. Bid deal? Nope. And frankly, if I were diving a cave, I'd be diving with a 7 foot hose so that I could escape single file in an OOA situation. I'd also route the 7 foot hose DIR style. However, I think I'd avoid a necklace if I could. And in open water, I'll go without the 7 footer, thank you. Too much to get tangled. But I couldn't care less if my octo was integrated or not.
That said, let me also tell you this... Dive Rite pull dumps suck. They feel like they're going to pull off. They require a lot of pull to get them to work. I hear of them breaking all the time. No surprise, based on what I saw. Even when they do work right, they're slow, not really in the right position, and they distort the wing too much to function properly when you pull on them. To boot, they don't allow you to "feel" the air coming out of the wing when you pull on them, so it's difficult to judge how much air is coming out, or even whether or not they're working properly when wearing a bp/wing. None of these issues were there with the high-end jacket or back inflate BC's that I've tried. All of them had simple, solid-feeling mechanisms attached securely to the BC, which dumped air efficiently and effectively, and allowed you to "feel" the air escaping, so you could accurately judge.
Want a bottom line opinion?
Scubapro Classic (which has an integrated backplate), please... With an Air II and an air integrated, hoseless computer mounted on my LEFT wrist. (I'm right handed, so it'll get beat up less.) This configuration would be perfect for most of the open ocean and river dives I do.
If I was diving in a cave, I would not do it without a 7 foot hose and a buddy with the same rig as mine, with a canister light for long burn times. That 7 foot hose would mean funky routing, which would mean that there'd be a huge advantage in getting the bladder off my chest and onto my back. Then I'd have to trim the weight everywhere... And I'd end up with a bp and wings. I'd probably also forgo the air integrated computer and instead opt for a bottom timer (sound familiar?) because I could be more effective with deco times and have less possible problems in the electronics by "planning my dive and diving my plan." This wouldn't work for me in an open ocean dive, as a typical wreck dive would almost never be predictable as far as depth goes... Maybe I'd spend time on the deck of the wreck at 80'... Maybe I'd spend time checking out the bottom of the wreck at 110'... Maybe I'd chase a sea turtle to 40'... Who knows? Can't easily plan for that without seriously sactificing the enjoyment of the dive. In a cave, however, depth and time is very predicatable, so a bottom timer, I think, would be the simplest way to go.
So why would I choose the Classic again? Well... Because if I were lost at sea, I don't think I'd want anything else. Because I like the jacket's floatation characteristics, and it's ability to need very little trimming. Beucase it would work well to integrate my power inflator and secondary, and get rid of one more hose. Because it would work well with an air integrated, hoseless computer. Because it's easy to put on and easy to assemble on a rocking boat. Because it's easy to adjust and comfortable for that walk across the beach. And that's the kind of diving I do.
If I were diving in the caves, caverns, or springs, I think I'd fid it worth the extra time and effort to adjust the straps over a period of several dives to get a perfect fit, including the crotch strap. I think that I would not care that my straps had no padding, because I wouldn't have to hike it across the beach. Instead, I'd find solace knowing that if my straps got cut or damaged, I could replace them for cheap. I think that I'd prefer a long hose for getting out of tight spots. I think I'd be more affected by having part of the bladder up front, and I'd want it moved to the back.
So that's it...
Now, that said... I have a theory on why people are so passionate about their dive equipment choices... I believe it's because we are all different divers, of different body fat contents, different sizes, weights, etc... And all of us are diving in different environments, in different temperatures, with different wetsuits (or drysuits) and with different water salinity. We're even diving different tanks... Some of us use steel, and some of us use aluminum... Heck, even the same tank can have different characteristics just from brand name to brand name. I've dived an AL80 tank that ranged from being 16 lbs negative in the water, to diving an empty AL80 tank that was 2 lbs positive in the water. Of course, if it had been salt water, even those characteristics would have changed.
So please understand why everyone here seems to have a different opinion...
Me? I'm buying the Classic and getting a few "whiz-bang" features which aide to cimplify my gear. With the Classic and an Air II and a Vytec, I'll have just two hoses, and the simplest system I know, which can handle any situation I am in. But I can see the lure of a bp/wing. There are certain characteristics that it has that could be very useful in some situations. Also, I could effectively and safely dive that rig in any situation... But I would rather dive a Classic rig in open ocean, which could not be safely used in caves. But hey, that's personal choice.
I didnt like the lack of padding on the backplate, for those long treks to the water. I did not like the "homemade" appearance and fit/finish of the bp/wing. I did not find the unit any more streamlined that the best "over the counter" BC's out there... It just feels that way because everything's now on your back instead of integrated around your body. I did not like the bp/wing's "finickyness" of trim. I felt that all of the adjustablity and "pieced together-ness" of the bp/wings made for more of a pain in the neck than an advantage, which is complete customizablity.
So that's it... Personal choice... And I'm sticking to that. And my Classic. Even if it's not "cool."
SeaJay,
Great post! While I dont agree with your conclusion, as Im slowly working my way to a BP and wings, it was great to read the opinion and experiences of someone that went into the comparison with an open mind and made their own decision.
I have a SeaQuest Balance now and think that back inflation is the way to go. The issue that you had with the required adjustments to the BP and wings are the very reason I want one. With flexibility comes complexity, theres no free lunch.
Thanks,
Mike
Great post! While I dont agree with your conclusion, as Im slowly working my way to a BP and wings, it was great to read the opinion and experiences of someone that went into the comparison with an open mind and made their own decision.
I have a SeaQuest Balance now and think that back inflation is the way to go. The issue that you had with the required adjustments to the BP and wings are the very reason I want one. With flexibility comes complexity, theres no free lunch.
Thanks,
Mike
OP
SeaJay
Contributor
Thanks! Can you tell how tired I am? Lol... Too many irons in the fire... Including this bp/wing swim!
I think we're all really looking for the same thing here... A system that is simplistic in design and does it's job perfectly without any problems. There's no question that we all want perfect trim, plenty of buoyancy, and a backup reg that works. After all, we'd all like to live!
The question is, "Which is simpler," the over-the-counter BC that you simply buy and use, and can use it in most any situation fairly well, without putting too much thought into trim, or the simply-designed never-have-a-problem-with-it backplate and harness? Yeah, you'll have to trim and adjust, which can be a pain, particularly if you swim in different waters with different gear often, but the bp/wing is completely customizable to give you the optimum setup in every situation...
I think we're all really looking for the same thing here... A system that is simplistic in design and does it's job perfectly without any problems. There's no question that we all want perfect trim, plenty of buoyancy, and a backup reg that works. After all, we'd all like to live!
The question is, "Which is simpler," the over-the-counter BC that you simply buy and use, and can use it in most any situation fairly well, without putting too much thought into trim, or the simply-designed never-have-a-problem-with-it backplate and harness? Yeah, you'll have to trim and adjust, which can be a pain, particularly if you swim in different waters with different gear often, but the bp/wing is completely customizable to give you the optimum setup in every situation...
ddown
Contributor
I have tried 2 different BP Wing setups during the last four years and have approched with an open mind my conclusion I love my Classic NT ScubaPro and my TransPac II.
Nuh Said
Flame Away:boom:
Nuh Said
Flame Away:boom:
....as long as you are happy.
Something tells me though... that anyone who resurrects a long dead thread to pick a fight can't really be all that happy. :boom:
No you don't!
OP
SeaJay
Contributor
Thanks for ressurecting this post...
I can't believe I said the things I did.
Actually, I can... I put a load of work into research. The more I learned and the more I dove, the more important some things became, and the less important others became.
I now dive exclusively with my Gary Hoadley SS bp and Halcyon Pioneer 27 wing. It's been less than a year since I started this thread (what... nine months?) but I've now got 189 dives logged, and I think I missed a couple.
In the beginning, someone said that they'd be very interested in seeing how my opinion changed as I progressed with my skills. Well...
I'm pretty crazy about my bp/wings. I would never consider the AirII on a Classic now.
How interesting...
Know what? I think I'm going to have to dive an AirII on a Classic and/or Knighthawk just to do a re-comparison now that my skill set has changed...
That would be really interesting...
I can't believe I said the things I did.
Actually, I can... I put a load of work into research. The more I learned and the more I dove, the more important some things became, and the less important others became.
I now dive exclusively with my Gary Hoadley SS bp and Halcyon Pioneer 27 wing. It's been less than a year since I started this thread (what... nine months?) but I've now got 189 dives logged, and I think I missed a couple.
In the beginning, someone said that they'd be very interested in seeing how my opinion changed as I progressed with my skills. Well...
I'm pretty crazy about my bp/wings.
I would never consider the AirII on a Classic now.How interesting...
Know what? I think I'm going to have to dive an AirII on a Classic and/or Knighthawk just to do a re-comparison now that my skill set has changed...
That would be really interesting...
Scubamedicjoe
Contributor
well my friend allot has happened and glad you are feeling more comfortable mys self still in my jacket ( Sherwood AVID ) however I too are making gradual changes starting with I am taking a DIR class End of June if I can keep up funds , but hears my trouble best I can figure its going to cost me close to $400 and up for a backplate, harness, bands and wings thats allot to fork out to try first to see if I like it or not.
my one complante for GUE is the fact now they require a wing/Backplate harness now for the class. this forks up to allot of cash right off bat not to mention the class cost .
any words of wisdom hear, I am trying I can and still looking for wings thinking maybe the trek wings instead the classic wings from diverite . any help hear would be nice thanks .
my one complante for GUE is the fact now they require a wing/Backplate harness now for the class. this forks up to allot of cash right off bat not to mention the class cost .
any words of wisdom hear, I am trying I can and still looking for wings thinking maybe the trek wings instead the classic wings from diverite . any help hear would be nice thanks .
OP
SeaJay
Contributor
That's a really good point, medic... I took my class before they required the gear. Frankly, it took me all of about two minutes to realize that I really needed it for the class, but if they had required it, I don't know that it would have been so easy to make the decision to take the class. Like you said, it's hard to justify purchasing all of that gear first, and then taking the class, just to find out if it's right for you.
I'm somewhat at a loss in terms of a recommendation at this point, other than the obvious... Buy the setup and take the class! I will also remind you that EE offers a 30-day money-back satisfaction guarantee on the standard Halcyon bp/wing (Pioneer 27-equipped rig retails for $505, complete). Thus, if you don't like it, you can always send it back for a refund.
But I honestly doubt that will happen. I don't know of anyone yet that hasn't fallen in love with the rig, especially after being shown how to use it properly in DIR-F (not to mention the help in fitment).
As a more realistic approach, I would say that you should first purchase the book and read it. Then read it again. If you are still intrigued by DIR, then take the class... I have a funny feeling that if you booked the class and then put some "feelers out," you might find someone willing to lend you a basic bp/wing. Don't expect top-of-the-line stuff, but something tells me that someone would lend you the rig if you were really hard pressed...
I'm somewhat at a loss in terms of a recommendation at this point, other than the obvious... Buy the setup and take the class! I will also remind you that EE offers a 30-day money-back satisfaction guarantee on the standard Halcyon bp/wing (Pioneer 27-equipped rig retails for $505, complete). Thus, if you don't like it, you can always send it back for a refund.
But I honestly doubt that will happen.
I don't know of anyone yet that hasn't fallen in love with the rig, especially after being shown how to use it properly in DIR-F (not to mention the help in fitment).As a more realistic approach, I would say that you should first purchase the book and read it. Then read it again. If you are still intrigued by DIR, then take the class... I have a funny feeling that if you booked the class and then put some "feelers out," you might find someone willing to lend you a basic bp/wing. Don't expect top-of-the-line stuff, but something tells me that someone would lend you the rig if you were really hard pressed...
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