My Impression of the Back Inflate vs. Jacket Style vs. BP/Wings Debate

[java]

Looking forward to the next test - SeaJay and the properly fitted singles BP/Wings.
When will you be trying it out?
Thanks

 

[tombiowami]

I will toss in a good word for the camping at Ginnie also, really beautiful grounds with old cypress trees everywhere, and a lot of sites right on the Sante Fe. The local wildlife can be a bit noisy on the weekend nights though.

I have also dove at Paradise Springs. It is a bit down south of the High Springs area. Very deep cavern, 45 degree or so drop to 100+ feet, and then a cave starts.

I would probably rate it a little more difficult dive than the others. Comparable to the back side of Blue Grotto.

I was looking to get cavern certified so I could check out the first parts of some actual caves in the cavern zone, but am leaning more toward a GUE cave 1 course.




Tommy

 

[SeaJay]

java once bubbled...
Looking forward to the next test - SeaJay and the properly fitted singles BP/Wings.
When will you be trying it out?
Thanks

Not sure when, exactly... But it's probably sometime in the next ten days or so. The guy's name is "Al," and he's a DM up there somewhere. I wasn't able to figure out if he was DIR or not, but he has an extra BP and Wing and is willing to allow me to give it a shot.

He's from the UWEX mailing list, which of course is a mailing list filled with respected and experienced divers.

I'll keep y'all posted.

 

[SM Diver]

SeaJay's review got me thinking about all the things I didn't like in my BCD, which is a rear inflate Aqualung Malibu. I started doing some research, visited LDS's, read reviews, found everything I could on the ScubaPro Classic, and then, ordered one which arrived this week.

The first thing I noticed about this unit an intangible. It just looks and feels like a product that a lot of thought went into. I got the silver/blk ScubaPro Classic Plus w/ Air2.

Absolutely every complaint that I had about the Aqualung has been addressed by ScubaPro: Non-velcro ditchable weights, better pockets, rear weight compartments more secure, the extra dump valve on the right shoulder, layout of D rings, and, most importantly, the vest inflate vs. rear.

Got it wet yesterday for the first time, and one of the first things I was interested in seeing was how quickly I could dump air. One of the things that I found most disturbing about the Malibu is how air can get trapped in the rear bladder. The problem was made worse by the absense of a right shoulder dump valve. I had a couple of incidents of having to do underwater gymnastics to get the thing to dump. Not so in the ScubaPro, which, actually needs a right shoulder dump less than the Malibu, but has one anyway. The quality of the valves far surpass the Malibu, opening quicly and fully when intended.

The tank latch is great. For anyone who is prone to seasickness doing boat dives, here is another little intangible for the Classic. Many divers complain that the sickness begins when they start fiddling with their gear, preparing for the dive, and thus taking their eyes of the horizon. With this latch system, I cut my prep time in half, and it is so simple to get your gear set-up.

The feeling on top of the water was much better, not being pushed forward.

In short, the ScubaPro Classic Plus is in a totally different league then the Aqualung Malibu. I won't attempt to indict other systems, because I don't know. Frankly, I likely never will know because I can't imagine being happier in any other BCD.

SeaJay, thanks for the great review. I'll hook you up with an all expenses paid Gulf dive if you find your way to Tampa.

 

[SeaJay]

SeaJay, thanks for the great review. I'll hook you up with an all expenses paid Gulf dive if you find your way to Tampa.

Wow! You know, I've been known to take people up on offers like that! Tampa's not too far, and it would give me a good excuse for a road trip!

Anything interesting in your local waters?

I'm flattered that my review helped you out, and glad to have given you a hand!

The first thing I noticed about this unit an intangible. It just looks and feels like a product that a lot of thought went into. I got the silver/blk ScubaPro Classic Plus w/ Air2.

That's pretty much how I felt about it, too... It's hard not to really like the BCD from the moment you pick it up...

Absolutely every complaint that I had about the Aqualung has been addressed by ScubaPro: Non-velcro ditchable weights, better pockets, rear weight compartments more secure, the extra dump valve on the right shoulder, layout of D rings, and, most importantly, the vest inflate vs. rear.

See? I'm not crazy... I'm not crazy... I'm not crazy. Seriously, that's exactly what I found too...

Got it wet yesterday for the first time, and one of the first things I was interested in seeing was how quickly I could dump air. One of the things that I found most disturbing about the Malibu is how air can get trapped in the rear bladder. The problem was made worse by the absense of a right shoulder dump valve. I had a couple of incidents of having to do underwater gymnastics to get the thing to dump. Not so in the ScubaPro, which, actually needs a right shoulder dump less than the Malibu, but has one anyway. The quality of the valves far surpass the Malibu, opening quicly and fully when intended.

Some of the points you make here were ones that I didn't even think about... But you're right!

The tank latch is great. For anyone who is prone to seasickness doing boat dives, here is another little intangible for the Classic. Many divers complain that the sickness begins when they start fiddling with their gear, preparing for the dive, and thus taking their eyes of the horizon. With this latch system, I cut my prep time in half, and it is so simple to get your gear set-up.

Oh, man... I didn't even think of that either. Know what else I like about this unit? I didn't even think of this before... It's the strap on the top of the BCD that allows you to adjust a specific height where it'll accept the tank... Thus, you always place the tank in the same position very easily. You simply place the BCD over the tank, rest it on that strap, and cinch the stainless buckle down in one fell swoop. The attachment system is simple, easy, secure and effective. And you always put the tank in the same place so you never find that you placed it a little too high in it's mount while you get whacked in the back of the head every time you swim horizontally. Problem solved with a little engineering, which I've seen on some of the other high end BCD's. If I put together a backplate and wings setup, I can assure you that I'll have one of these on the BP just to make assembly on a rocking boat quick and easy and less nauseating.

The feeling on top of the water was much better, not being pushed forward.

Did you find the jacket totally balanced? I mean, I felt at the surface better in the Classic than in any other BCD, although there were some others that came close. I also found later on that I could work with trim weights to balance myself at the surface, and basically closely duplicate the Classic feeling in a lot of BCD's, but the Classic nailed trim from the get-go without any effort. Underwater, I found the Classic to be wonderfully balanced, not off-trimming me in any way whatsoever. I found that I could swim or stay horizontal, vertical, upside-down, or whatever. Whereas a lot of people were telling me that back inflates tended to want to prefer horizontal and jacket style BCD's tended to want to prefer vertical, I found that the Classic did not prefer anything at all. That was really nice. Did you find the same?

In short, the ScubaPro Classic Plus is in a totally different league then the Aqualung Malibu. I won't attempt to indict other systems, because I don't know. Frankly, I likely never will know because I can't imagine being happier in any other BCD.

Your experience with the Malibu makes me wonder if it's experiences with jackets like that that convince people that jackets suck. Did your Aqualung have a hard plate in the back? Did you notice that the Classic has a built in backplate? It's like you never notice it, except that everything stays together so nicely... How's that for confusing the jacket vs. bp/wing setup debate?

I'm with ya on the Classic... And frankly, a little jealous that you got yours already. ut: I'm still munchin' on things before buying. I think I've got a bp/wing set up this week near Charleston. This is going to be my last test before I buy a BCD. And right now, that Classic is looking to me to be my favorite also, followed closely by the Transpac II, which was more of a pain with setup, but was also surprisingly balanced in the water. It was also interchangable with wings and weights so as to grow with the diver as he gets progressively more technical. I didn't like the fact that there was no hard plate to support the tank, though, which wasn't as secure as those BCD's equipped with a backplate. But it had the back inflate advantage of moving everything to the rear, out of my "working zone," and that backplate-less design made for the ability to fold up and stow in small places for travel. Also, trimmed properly, this back inflate did not have the face-first tendency that is supposed to be characteristic of some back inflate BCD's. But it took a while to tune that into this BC, and I preferred the "first nailed" trim of the Classic... Along with the fact that it has a whopping 61 lbs of lift (size large) when fully inflated, yet felt very streamlined when deflated, especially for a jacket stlye BC. It was like I got all of the advantages of everything I tried without the disadvantages. And frankly, as often as I dive open ocean, the possibility of being lost at sea is a real possibility... And guess which BC I'd want to be wearing if that happened? You got it... Guess which I'd choose to wear when/if rescuing a buddy? You got it...

I also love the idea of the Air II, since it gets rid of one more dangly. Add to that the quality valves and yes, a pull dump (actually two if you count the one on the right shoulder too) and surfacing while using the Air II would be a nonissue. Again, all the advantages without any of the disadvantages, and again why I really liked the BC. Right shoulder pull dumps and integrated octos weren't available on most other BCD's, and not at all available on any Dive Rite or Halcyon gear... Although they consider that an advantage... Less to go wrong. Of course, taken to the extreme, you could also get rid of everything else in your life that might go bad, which doesn't make any sense. I once dated a girl with the same thought process... She broke up with me because she was afraid of losing me. 'Course, she was back in a week, but I didn't hang out with her very long. I have higher standards...

Scubapro seems to address whatever issue is there by simply supplying high quality valves instead of getting rid of them altogether.

Anyway, I'm off my soapbox now. Glad that my post helped! Shoot me an email at SeaJay@BMWDrivers.org if you're serious about diving the Gulf!

 

[Fetch]

Primarily about the AirII. First, strictly from a slipstream point of view, it'd break water flow just a much (or maybe slightly more) than a bungied necklace. So posit: the bungied backup regulator isn't more "dangly". The backup second stage (say, some inexpensive non-balanced reg from Scubapro) should be no more expensive than an AirII, and in a situation in which you need to use it, the position of your backup reg a little more certain than the AirII. Now here's the kicker: I've witnessed at least one AirII device break and go into an intermittant free-flow mode (leading to my buddy bypassing it or orally inflating his BCD - I can't remember which. I just remember he had no backup regulator at all ). Completely aside from the fact that a more traditionally designed regulator is less likely to fail than an AirII (which I can't prove with real data), even if they are as exactly as likely to fail, ask yourself the probability of being able to rent an AirII to replace for a failed dive, versus being able to rent a regulator to replace a failed backup reg...

That's why, after seeing it and using it, I consider a bungied backup regulator an AirII without the disadvantages

In regards to a 7' hose: if you're dead-set against using it for openwater diving (in my experience it works extremely well), then might I suggest looking at a 5' hose? The routing is similar (under right arm, across chest, around head feeding into mouth from right) but it does not require a pocket or canister light on your right hip. The S-drill for this configuration is less failure-prone and more "elegant", from my personal experience, as compared to a traditional 4'-ish hose.

I'm glad you found streamlining to be so advantageous, I came to a similar epithany when I started diving my BP/wings (and for me, it was a complete leap of faith)

jeff

 

[SeaJay]

Primarily about the AirII. First, strictly from a slipstream point of view, it'd break water flow just a much (or maybe slightly more) than a bungied necklace. So posit: the bungied backup regulator isn't more "dangly".

Hunh? Of course it is...

With a standard PADI setup, a diver will have a short primary hose going over their right shoulder and back to the first stage, while the secondary typically sits attached to the diver somewhere around their right chest or waist area, with a longer (3-4ft) hose also attached to their first stage. Then there's the power inflator/deflator, typically with a pull dump, so at least they can bungee down the inflator hose so it doesn't dangle, and is still accessible in case they need to use the dump on the end of the hose.

A DIR rig will instead have the primary on a long (5-7 ft) hose which goes from the first stage, down the diver's back (next to the tank and wing) and under a light, weight, or pocket that the diver holds on their right side somewhere around their waist. Then the hose curves around, across the diver's chest, and hooks around the left side of the neck of the diver, coming around to the right and in the diver's mouth. Then a secondary, on a shorter hose typically is fed under the diver's right arm (or sometimes over their right shoulder) to hang on a necklace in front of them. Then there's the seperate power inflator hose, hanging over their left shoulder, that's usually been shortened. I see this as slightly more streamlined, since the primary hose no longer goes far to the right of the diver, and therefore stays closer to his body. There's also a shorter power inflator hose... But that advantage, IMHO, though, is nullified by the fact that the primary hose is now wrapped around the backside of the diver's neck. For me, I found this slightly restrictive, especially in turning my head to the left. I also found that the hose wrapped around the back of my neck tended to pull the little hairs back there, and I found the necklace to hold the secondary reg in *just the wrong spot* for looking downward... For me, the primary and secondary regs interfered with each other when I looked downward. I also felt that the 7 foot primary, while usually close to my body and basically out of the slipstream, posed a problem, particularly if I brought my knees to my chest... This action, done to curl over and sink at the beginning of my dive, done to clear my fins from the bottom if I got too close, or simply in swimming around, caused the 7 foot primary to bow outward, creating something to snag on. I can see why you'd want it in an OOA situation in a wreck or cave, however... I just don't think I'd want to dive with one all the time. The rig did nothing to simplify or streamline over a standard setup, with the exception possibly of bringing the primary hose closer to my body (the disadvantage was that it seemed to bind on me a bit because of it) and also to mount my secondary in a place where it was very immediately accecssible... Only inches from my face. I felt like it was in the way, but I can see how it being so close would be an advantage by a second or two in blackwater. Maybe the shorter power inflator hose was a slight streamline advantage, but not significantly.

The Air II, on the other hand, solved all of these problems for me. I was able to get rid of the seondary completely... It was now on the end of my power inflator hose, very much out of the slipstream. Frankly, it cleared up my chest area, kept hoses to a minimum, and occupied only a tiny bit more space than my power inflator did anyway. One less hose to deal with, and one less "dangly." All of the setups use a power inflator hose, so that's going to be there anyway. The Air II, however, just made use of that hose in one more instance so that I could get rid of the other.

And as far as dealing with it in a buddy's OOA situation... The setup would go like this: Your buddy uses your primary, and you use your Air II, which is really no further from your face than if you had it on a necklace. See, it had the advantage of the necklace without it being in the way like a necklace, and I got to get rid of an octopus completely. Again, all the advantages without the disadvantages.

It's been said before that using an Air II while your buddy uses your primary would be intense task loading, since you'd have to maintain buoyancy through the reg that you're using to breathe from... And that's a valid point. Scubapro addressed this issue by giving you a completely seperate pull dump on the right shouder, so that there's no additional task loading, and all of the advantages are still there. Interestingly, this also gave you the advantage that you could now mount your dive computer on your left wrist, if you so chose, since you could use your right hand to manipulate buoyancy while ascending.

So I don't agree with you... Getting rid of a secondary reg, and it's associated hoses and attachment point and/or necklace is the whole point, and very much why the system is more streamlined. Not having a 7 foot hose, which really doesn't affect streamlining significantly either way, poses less of an entanglement threat when it's avoided. And no pulled hairs on the back of your neck, either (why do you think these DIR guys so often wear hoods? It's to stay warm, but also to cushion that 7 foot primary. You guys wear hoods? They suck, IMHO. Only if necesary!)

The backup second stage (say, some inexpensive non-balanced reg from Scubapro) should be no more expensive than an AirII,

Actually, to be fair, a balanced secondary reg is considerably LESS than a balanced integrated octopus from the two leading manufacturers (Scubapro and SeaQuest.) I've heard the argument that integrated octos don't breathe well... And that's just not a fair comparison. While peoples' experiences may vary based on the comparative quality of the unit they tried, there is little to no difference between a quality, air integrated octo and a comparative secondary. In fact, Apeks, the maker of some of the world's most reputable regulators, makes an integrated octopus that can be retrofitted to any BC... And internally, it uses the same components that are found on some of their most popular and reputable designs. For all intents and purposes, there's little difference, and therefore little performance difference, between an integrated octo and a seperate octo.

But again, to be fair, integrated octos are typically considerably more than seperate ones... But have the advantage of getting rid of another hose and the attaching hardware. There should be little difference in performance. All three major units on the market; the SeaQuest Air Source, the Scubapro Air II, and the Apeks Octo+, are all balanced regs and well thought of.

and in a situation in which you need to use it, the position of your backup reg a little more certain than the AirII.

That argument might be valid if comparing a DIR (actualy, "Hogarithan" <sp?>) rig to a standard rig (I don't remember the actual name for it, but it's what PADI and NAUI teach)... Whereas the DIR rig will have the secondary placed under the diver's chin, the standard rig will typically have the secondary SOMEWHERE on the diver's right side. Different people do it different ways, which is why, typically, they use a yellow hose and yellow reg... So it's easy to find.

But in terms of comparing the DIR rig to an integrated octo... Any differences really are moot... With the DIR rig, the secondary is directly below the diver's chin. With the integrated octo, it's on the power inflator hose, just to the left of where it would be on a DIR rig. There's very little difference.

Now here's the kicker: I've witnessed at least one AirII device break and go into an intermittant free-flow mode (leading to my buddy bypassing it or orally inflating his BCD - I can't remember which. I just remember he had no backup regulator at all ).

Okay, but I've experienced many times a secondary that has free flowed as well... For that matter, a primary that has free flowed. All an air integrated octo is is a secondary regulator on the end of the inflator hose instead of on a seperate hose. Nothing magical or dangerous... It simply gets rid of an extra hose. There is no reason to expect that the unit's tendency to free flow would be any higher or lower than any other secondary.

Completely aside from the fact that a more traditionally designed regulator is less likely to fail than an AirII (which I can't prove with real data),

Of course you can't prove that with real data. Nobody could... There's no reason to believe that a secondary on the end of your power inflator hose would fail any more or less than a secondary on the end of a seperate hose.

even if they are as exactly as likely to fail,

That's probably correct.

ask yourself the probability of being able to rent an AirII to replace for a failed dive, versus being able to rent a regulator to replace a failed backup reg...

Well, that's probably true.

But the addition of an integrated octo does not mean that you can't use a seperate secondary too... If your integrated didn't work for some reason, you could simply dive like everyone else does... With a seperate secondary. No big deal. If it stuck open and was freeflowing, you could remove it topside and go without it... Exactly the same thing that you'd do if you had a seperate secondary get stuck in freeflow.

I'm glad you found streamlining to be so advantageous, I came to a similar epithany when I started diving my BP/wings (and for me, it was a complete leap of faith)

Well, I'm still going to try another bp/wings setup, hopefully sometime this week. Sorry, I don't believe in "faith," especially when it comes to life support systems. This will be my third time in them, if you count the other two times I used a bp/wing setup... But admittedly, the first time was probably set up incorrectly, while the second time was with a set of doubles that made me entirely overweighted.

I would love nothing more than to find out that there was a bp/wing setup that was better than anything else I've tried so far. How nice it would be to have a modular system, with everything behind me and out of my "work zone" that was more streamlined and cost less than anything else I've found so far. I'd love that! Unfortunately, what I've found is that the cleanest, simplest, and most balanced design has not been the bp/wing setup; and therefore not what I would choose up to this point. But I'm still looking at all of the options.

Let me quickly clarify what I think would be the cleanest, simplest, most dependable, and most balanced design so far, out of everything I've dived up to this point:

1. Scubapro Classic BC with 6-12 lbs of weight in it's integrated pockets. Probably a three or four pounder on each side in the ditchable, and two two's or three's in each shoulder blade pocket for salt water diving.

2. An AL80 tank. Simple, lightweight, elegant, and appropriate for much of the diving I do. Maybe a little bigger for some of the slightly longer or deeper dives than usual. I wouldn't do doubles at all unless the situation really required them. The extra drag and weight is a pain.

3. Apeks ATX200 or Scubapro MK25 regulator. I've breathed them. There's other great ones out there, too, but I loved both of these units. Awesome stuff, and I know where I can get the Apeks pretty cheap overseas. My buddy, a 95 lb female, prefers the tinyness of the US Divers Micro, but I preferred the large exhaust tees of the Mk25 and ATX200... They kept bubbles out of my face better.

4. Integrated octo (Air II) on the Classic... No extra hoses!

5. Air integrated, hoseless diver computer such as the Suunto Vytec... I prefer that over the UWATEC series computers because of the pushbuttons instead of the contacts, and because of the user changable battery. I hear both are excellent units.

With this setup, there'd be just two hoses coming from my first stage... One for my primary reg, and the other for my BC. To me, this setup would be ideal and very simple and streamlined. There's enough pockets and just enough D-rings to hold my gear, and I would be ready for just about anything.

I love my Mares Quattro fins, my O'Neill 3/2 mil wetsuit, and my tiny but powerful PCa Ikelight.

All of that said, I can see needing larger tanks, multiple tanks, perhaps a real pressure gauge, a thicker suit (or drysuit), and a hood given harsher environments. If I was diving past 120' or so, or doing longer dives I would consider a different breathing gas, too, such as EANx (Nitrox) or Trimix for their specific applicaion. Would need to get certified for those first, though. I can see the advantage in having a real dive light for longer applications, like in caving. I think my PCa, which is wonderfully compact and out of the way when not in use and very powerful for it's size, only lasts about 55 minutes on it's six AA cell batteries... Not enough to be worth much except as a backup light when caving or night diving.

...But in keeping an open mind about all of this, I promised myself that I'd give the bp/wing thing one more shot. I thought I'd get the opportunity to do that this weekend, but it's not working out that way. Hopefully I can dive a bp/wing agian sometime this week.

And I reserve the right to change my inclination on gear, if that happens... And I promise to eat crow if I have to. But so far, I just don't see it. Maybe if I was diving in 50* water at 300' on trimix, and had stage bottles...

 

[SM Diver]

SeaJay once bubbled...


Wow! You know, I've been known to take people up on offers like that! Tampa's not too far, and it would give me a good excuse for a road trip!

Anytime after September 23, just let me know. With advance notice I can clear a couple of week days, or we could dive a weekend. I am busy before then working on AOW and Nitrox, and some speciality courses.

Anything interesting in your local waters?

Definitely. A lot of ship wrecks to explore, and plenty of opportunities for either spearfishing of photography.

Did you find the jacket totally balanced? I mean, I felt at the surface better in the Classic than in any other BCD, although there were some others that came close. I also found later on that I could work with trim weights to balance myself at the surface, and basically closely duplicate the Classic feeling in a lot of BCD's, but the Classic nailed trim from the get-go without any effort. Underwater, I found the Classic to be wonderfully balanced, not off-trimming me in any way whatsoever. I found that I could swim or stay horizontal, vertical, upside-down, or whatever. Whereas a lot of people were telling me that back inflates tended to want to prefer horizontal and jacket style BCD's tended to want to prefer vertical, I found that the Classic did not prefer anything at all. That was really nice. Did you find the same?

Yes, definitely. For example, I have a "sports pool", which means the deepest part if 5'5", with two shallow ends about 3'. I was able to swim around that pool, even in the 3' ends, perfectly horizontal, and using lung capacity always trimmed and never popping up unintentionally. Remarkable trim and balance.

Your experience with the Malibu makes me wonder if it's experiences with jackets like that that convince people that jackets suck. Did your Aqualung have a hard plate in the back? Did you notice that the Classic has a built in backplate? It's like you never notice it, except that everything stays together so nicely... How's that for confusing the jacket vs. bp/wing setup debate?

Yes, the Malibu had a hard plate. I prefer the Classic's design by far, given the latch system I mentions. The Malibu required more time and exertion, having to finagle it over the tank, and then tighten the strap. The Classic is a no-brainer type set-up. Just hang it on the tank, and then latch it down.

I also love the idea of the Air II, since it gets rid of one more dangly.

Yes, I didn't mention much about the Air2, but I loved it. Couldn't wait to take the Octo hose and second stage off my reg. Everything sweems more streamlined, and less unweildy. I especially like this because I like to use a pony with hose and second stage, and if I still had that octo I'd have hoses running all over the place.

Shoot me an email at SeaJay@BMWDrivers.org if you're serious about diving the Gulf!

I'll be in touch. As long as I know when you want to come down and dive, I'll invite a couple of local guys, and we can alternate groups in the water, leaving someone topside at all times.

 

[divedivedive!]

SeaJay,

One thing I'd just like to clarify about your argument against the backplate rig is that you say you can't use the Air2 on it; umm, why not, sure you can. Using one will mean you aren't DIR, but being DIR and using a b/p are not necessarily inclusive terms. For example - I use a Halcyon wing but I also use a Sherwood Shadow+, a variant of the integrated octopus/power inflator, like the Air2. Just buy them separately and install them as you please, its your rig after all.

While you're at it I don't use a 7- (or 5-) foot primary hose, or Jetfins, etc, either. Don't mix up DIR with just buying a backplate and wings, and don't let this DIR aspect influence your buying choice thus.

(PS if you're all that interested in taking up DIR-F, you reeeeally want to rethink buying an Air2...)

 

[SeaJay]

divedivedive! once bubbled...
SeaJay,

One thing I'd just like to clarify about your argument against the backplate rig is that you say you can't use the Air2 on it; umm, why not, sure you can.

I didn't mean to imply that you couldn't...

But that said, if you were to use an integrated octo on a wing (such as a Halcyon) then you'd have to also have a little bit longer inflator hose, too, so that you could use the integrated octo effectively. This wouldn't work well because there's no pull dump on the wing, and so you'd have to lift a long hose high in the air every time you went to use it to deflate. One of the advantages in the simpler, no-pull-dump deflator is that you could instead shorten it and not really sacrifice any convenience. But if you added an Air II, then you couldn't do that.

So in short, it's not that I couldn't use an Air II with a bp/wing... It's that I'd have an integrated octo without a pull dump, and the bp wouldn't have a pull dump on the right shoulder either... This means, of course, that in a true OOA emergency, I really would be task loaded pretty badly, trying to get one unit (the one in my mouth) to do everything for me.

While you're at it I don't use a 7- (or 5-) foot primary hose, or Jetfins, etc, either. Don't mix up DIR with just buying a backplate and wings, and don't let this DIR aspect influence your buying choice thus.

Hey, that's a really good point... As soon as I get to check out that bp/wing setup again, I'll be making some choices... And I'll keep that in mind!

(PS if you're all that interested in taking up DIR-F, you reeeeally want to rethink buying an Air2...)

LOL!! Yeah, no doubt... They'd make a mockery of me, wouldn't they? Ah, well... I could always just smile and take it. Wouldn't be the first time.