Mr Chattertons Self Reliance Article...

[DaleC]

Johns probably pissing his pants laughing at how we are still arguing about his article without actually referring to it in any way.
Gotta go sleepy now.

 

[lowviz]

He's gotta be loving it.

Good idea, I think I'll stare at my eyelids for a while too...

 

[danvolker]

Funny how some teams/divers/areas never seem to have reg muggings. And some boats or areas (at least on the internet) seem to have them all the time. Go figure. And who ever said anything about unfamiliar gear? Familiarity with OC doubles, long hose and an isolator manifold crosses over to an RB80 SCR with an isolating manifold, a ton of back-mounted bailout breathable at any depth and a long hose - must be the work of a dizzying intellect! inconceivable!

Just exactly "where" have all these "reg muggings" occurred? What do they have in common in the places they occur?
I am wondering if it is an outgrowth of having and area with large tech trips ( many divers per boat) with many "non-self-sufficient solo tech divers"- maybe there are areas where the norm is to take just enough gas for what you plan on doing, and just enough for yourself? And if the plan is wrong, then this kind of diver is a very likely "reg mugger" candidate---and a place where many of these divers are found, is going to foster an attitude about how to avoid losing your own planned gas supply to one of their muggings.... And IF I was to visit such a place, I probably would understand more about Chatterton's idea of "My gas is my Gas"...in the context of this happening often, with people you don't even know. And In such an area, it would make excellent sense to begin preaching to the masses of potential reg muggers, that they SHOULD bring enough gas and redundancy to NEVER have this problem.....

Maybe the disconnect in the last week of bar-fighting here, has been that since our South Fl boats we tech dive on, just take us, without large groups of others we don't know---we don't get the muggings--and each of us already DOES BRING way more gas than we need---actually enough for both us and a buddy.....and we dive in buddy teams, so you just don't really get to the point of seeing a lone diver screaming down a passageway OOA, looking for another tech diver to steal gas from....Which is to say that the real problem is not buddy versus solo, but the problem is a place( or places) that has large numbers of non-redundantly equipped solo's that have been planning only for what they think they need--and big boats that concentrate these divers on a tech wreck.

 

[nakatomi]

Just exactly "where" have all these "reg muggings" occurred? What do they have in common in the places they occur?

That's a very good question, I was wondering the same thing.

Which is to say that the real problem is not buddy versus solo, but the problem is a place( or places) that has large numbers of non-redundantly equipped solo's that have been planning only for what they think they need--and big boats that concentrate these divers on a tech wreck.

You have a point there. It's quite possible that these people think they know it all, think they are self-sufficient and able to handle all that fate throws at them, when in actual fact they are way in over their heads.
Obviously certain dive sites will attract these kind of people like magnets, deep wrecks being among them?

Oliver

 

[billgraham]

No, that is NOT what he said.. I don't think we should try to twist or change his words... He never said someone was trying to take his primary regulator. Read what he wrote..


My secondary regulator is there for me, not you! If you try to take it from me, I will fight you for it, and I will win. That is my plan. There is no reason in the world for a deep diver to need gas from me on the bottom, much less jump me. Breathe your own damn gas, any gas, even the wrong gas, and return to the surface as quickly and safely as possible.

When someone is panicked, they want the one in your mouth--that's the reality. They'll actually ignore the one you are trying to hand them and go for the one in your mouth.

Not to make this a discussion about side mount, but actually I think most people dive side mount not as a specific tool but for other reasons. It's much easier on the back carrying one tank at a time as opposed to heavy doubles. This is especially true for getting tanks in and out of the car. Obviously, or so I heard, the diving population is getting older, so this is a serious factor. Next thing, side mount diving does feel very natural when done right, meaning in good trim. Which actually is a bit easier than in backmounted doubles. The first dive I did felt so genuinely good that I knew this was what I wanted to keep on doing, even though I had very good trim and no issues at all in backmounted doubles. Next when you use it you come to enjoy all the other benefits.
You're absolutely right, 99% of the diving population don't need it, and 99.5% don't need rebreathers. But then they don't NEED to dive in the first place, they choose to because they can



Yes, very true. Swapping back and forth between equipment and procedures is absolutely no good.

Oliver

I don't buy this at all. I've heard this from the CCR people for years, "You have to dive the CCR all the time or your skills will evaporate bla bla bla." It's BS. Do you need to dive it? Sure. Do you need to dive it all the time? Certainly not. My goal has always been to be welll rounded--whatever kind of dive we want to do, I can do it (within reason). OC/CCR/Backmount/Sidemount/wreck/cave whatever. I think it's a mistake to be married to any gear configuration, and I certainly don't want anyone "standardizing" my admittedly non-standard OC or CCR sidemount rigs. I don't understand the desire to make everyone do exactly the same thing, since I've usually got a reason for having my gear the way it is. I didn't pursue GUE training for that reason, I have always done things a bit differently and like that aspect of diving.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

When someone is panicked, they want the one in your mouth--that's the reality. They'll actually ignore the one you are trying to hand them and go for the one in your mouth.

I would say that isn't so much a reality as a tendency ... and due to people being taught to allow the OOA diver that choice. The reality is they'll take the one that's easiest for them to reach. If that one happens to be extended toward their face, at the business end of your right arm, they're very unlikely to swim past it to grab the one you're breathing. I could never understand the reasoning behind the "lift your arm and allow the OOA diver to see your octopus" reasoning ... it assumes someone who's not breathing at depth is going to be thinking rationally ... and that isn't always a valid assumption.

And in any case, you should be able to deal with it without undue stress regardless of which reg they take. Too much ado is made over this point, when the more relevant one is that even if someone mugs you for the reg you're breathing, it's far easier to just acquire your secondary and use it than it would be to "fight" that person to recover the one they took. Last thing you want to do when someone is stressed underwater is give them a reason to be even more stressed ... that's taking a minor problem and turning it into a major one.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added February 20th, 2013 at 05:36 AM ----------

This is where a real divide is, imo. We tend to look at doing the dive as a goal, and not using some special kit as the goal.

If you're going to dive, you take what's needed. Nothing more. Nothing less. If the dive doesn't need a RB (or sidemount, or anything, really) why take it and subject your self to increased risk and hassle? To me and the people I dive with "because I can" isn't good enough.

Most folks tend to look at doing the dive as a recreational activity, and as with any recreational activity the toys you take along are part of the satisfaction of being there.

I tend to dive with a camera. It increases the risk and hassle of the dive ... but I love taking it with me ... because I can.

Not everyone wants to look at their dive as a "mission" ... for most of us, it's just a way to relax and get away from the stresses of everyday life ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[boulderjohn]

Anyone who is wondering what the topic of this thread is should refer to the title. The last 100 posts or so would not give you a clue. I am disappointed this turned into yet another GUE/DIR thread.

 

[nakatomi]

I don't buy this at all. I've heard this from the CCR people for years, "You have to dive the CCR all the time or your skills will evaporate bla bla bla." It's BS. Do you need to dive it? Sure. Do you need to dive it all the time? Certainly not.

Well, let me rephrase it. Swapping back and forth is no good for ME. It could well be a personal limitation that I have. Every time I tweak stuff in regards to my setup, it takes several dives for me to hone in.
Others might be do better at it, you definitely seem to. I don't know how well others adapt to changes, but most likely some will adapt better and others worse.
About procedures and possibly standardizing some of them, as well as certain areas of the equipment, the main reason for that would be facilitate diving in teams. And most of us do dive with a buddy, at least from time to time, and the goal should be to make that an enjoyable and safe experience.

Oliver

 

[billgraham]

Hey Oliver, I do get that. When we started cave diving sidemount, there weren't any commercially made rigs available, we made our own. We also loosely decided we'd all use Poseidons set up pretty much the same way, as we all had them from wreck diving. The idea of this was more that (as I'm sure you know) when you get geared up to go cave diving, invariably someone's reg is bubbling or a pressure guage is stuck or leaking, and it's way easier to just grab a reg out of someone's box if they are all set up the same.

 

[PfcAJ]

I would say that isn't so much a reality as a tendency ... and due to people being taught to allow the OOA diver that choice. The reality is they'll take the one that's easiest for them to reach. If that one happens to be extended toward their face, at the business end of your right arm, they're very unlikely to swim past it to grab the one you're breathing. I could never understand the reasoning behind the "lift your arm and allow the OOA diver to see your octopus" reasoning ... it assumes someone who's not breathing at depth is going to be thinking rationally ... and that isn't always a valid assumption.

And in any case, you should be able to deal with it without undue stress regardless of which reg they take. Too much ado is made over this point, when the more relevant one is that even if someone mugs you for the reg you're breathing, it's far easier to just acquire your secondary and use it than it would be to "fight" that person to recover the one they took. Last thing you want to do when someone is stressed underwater is give them a reason to be even more stressed ... that's taking a minor problem and turning it into a major one.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added February 20th, 2013 at 05:36 AM ----------



Most folks tend to look at doing the dive as a recreational activity, and as with any recreational activity the toys you take along are part of the satisfaction of being there.

I tend to dive with a camera. It increases the risk and hassle of the dive ... but I love taking it with me ... because I can.

Not everyone wants to look at their dive as a "mission" ... for most of us, it's just a way to relax and get away from the stresses of everyday life ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I think that's cool and perfectly fine. You 'mission' might be to snag some photos and check out the reef/cave/wreck/whatever and get away from it all for a while. I do that too. I just spent a week doing it in the Perhentians. But if you're just trying to get some cool pics and relax, no need to clip off an entire dive shop to do it.