Monterey on Saturday (3/7)

[rhlee]

I'm glad my experience helped Mike Mill go down to the LDS and get himself a safety sasauge. That was one of our requirements when I finished Advanced Open Waters with my instructor. I never thought I'd have to deploy it, but I'm so happy I had it with me that day.

I'm thinking about investing in a surface marker I can deploy from depth. I want to get one with a reel and a heavy duty one.

I took a look at some that Halcyon makes and they have quite a few. Some say DAM only, while others are semi-circuit. Can anyone tell me the differences in them? Can anyone make a suggestion on how long I should get one?

They also have lift capacity and I was wondering what for? Aren't they just suppose to go up and not lift anything other than itself?

Any comments are most greatly appreciated.

MG

closed-circuit bags are ones that have a one-way valve that will inflate and stay inflated until you manually open the valve. These will have an inflation valve that can be filled orally or with an LP hose.

open circuit bags are ones that have an open bottom that need to stay upright in order to stay inflated. This is very important, as if you lose tension on the line and let the bag tip, you may lose inflation and hence your signalling mechanism. The advantage is that they can be filled with the exhaust from your second stage.

semi-closed bags are a compromise between the 2 that you can fill with the exhaust from a 2nd, but have a baffle so that when full, they should remain filled even if they tip over.


lift capacity is important because the higher the lift capacity, the harder it will be to shoot from depth (as you will need to compensate for the buoyancy change). The best bet for bags (IMHO) for your application is the Halcyon 3.3 (1m) closed-circuit bag. It has an inflation nipple that can be inflated orally or with an LP hose, and has a little under 6lbs of lift (so it is not a huge buoyancy swing).

Perhaps more so than other gear, it is very important to practice deploying an SMB in controlled setting (either get somebody with experience to show you, or even get some training on it). Once you throw line into the picture, things can get very dicey/wonky in a hurry, so it is really important to get comfortable with the spool/smb/line in a safe setting, if you do intend to use one from depth.

 

[Gombessa]

I'm thinking about investing in a surface marker I can deploy from depth. I want to get one with a reel and a heavy duty one.

I took a look at some that Halcyon makes and they have quite a few. Some say DAM only, while others are semi-circuit. Can anyone tell me the differences in them? Can anyone make a suggestion on how long I should get one?

They also have lift capacity and I was wondering what for? Aren't they just suppose to go up and not lift anything other than itself?

Hey Mike,

Why can't you underwater-deploy the SMB you have now? Is it too big, or not come with a spool?

Generally, smaller is better for underwater. DSS and Halcyon make 3ft smbs with 6lb lift, which are just perfect (and can be hauled back down to depth if you need). "DAM" is just Halcyon's brand name for their SMBs - "Diver Alert Marker" I think.

open, semi-closed and closed circuit just differ in how you blow them up. Closed is the easiest to deal with if the SMB is small - blow it up orally or disconnect your lp/drysuit inflator hose and use that - once filled, they're sealed and will stay inflated. Open and semi-closed are generally inflated by holding your octo to the opening and purging. The problem is that if they go all the way to the surface and the bottom breaks the surface (if there is no tension on the line and it it falls flat) the air escapes. Semi-closed limits this with internal baffles that help keep the air from escaping as quickly.

You don't need a big reel. A small finger-spool with 75-100ft of nylon line should be plenty for an SMB.

SMBs aren't really meant to lift anything, you can do it but it's really not ideal. I imagine the lift ratings are really just because larger SMBs have more air volume, and as such it's something you need to take into consideration, especially if deploying at depth. They could also help keep you on the surface if you lost your bc/drysuit inflation too...

I say get a small 3ft closed-circuit with minimal lift, with a finger spool. They seem to be the best/safest/easiest to deploy at depth. You can also carry a larger one on ocean dives which you can deploy from the surface for greater visibility.

Edit: Rob beat me to the punch--I agree with everything he said.

 

[mikeguerrero]

Well, if I have my timeline right, these guys were on the same boat, so they couldn't have been down much longer than anyone else. Further, they were on Nitrox, which would afford them a longer NDL time than someone diving air. Also, it seemed like Mike stayed with them for pretty much most of the dive (until gas supply forced him to ascend) so they would have had similar depth profiles...it doesn't seem likely that they'd have built a decompression obligation by that time.

I'm just speculating from my armchair here of course, and have no idea what the other divers saw/thought. I still believe that if it were me and my buddy, and we knew the diver who approached us was lost or buddyless or getting low on air, we would thumb the dive with him and stay together as a group.

Ken,

I appreciate your candid response to the situation at hand; how you would have assisted me under those conditions.

Both divers whom I don't know other than meeting them on the boat were what appeared to be experienced veteran divers.

Both went down with expensive cameras and reels and both had large bailout bottles slung on their D-rings.

They were the first that dove off the boat on dive #1 and again on dive #2. They appeared to be on an agenda when I found them at 80 feet of depth.

I approaced them roughly 5 minutes into my bottom time at 80ft. They were taking photos and exploring the reef with lights looking for creatures or inverts to snap pics of.

I thought they were Greg and the other divers, Mike Mill and his partner but soon saw they were not because of the Drysuit and the bottles.

I stayed extremely close to them in hoping that my gas would not run out until they were ready to return, I knew that wasn't going to happen as I saw they had the bailout bottles.

When my gas read 1,000 psi I went up to one of the divers and told him I need to return and he looked at me and said bye, bye. I asked him then if he knew where the boat was he signaled No, and again bye bye. The first diver didn't want to be bothered by my ignorance.

I then proceeded to see if his buddy would perhaps know where the anchor was, I swam up to him and he gave me the same response but he acknowledged me far better than the first diver.

He looked at me and shruked his shoulders when I asked about the boat, then he said bye bye and I started to do my ascent, he then looked at me and asked me if I have enough Gas, he asked if I was okay.

I gave him the okay signal and I started my ascent. He did at least recognize that I might need some assistance and he asked, I declined the help since I didn't want to impose on them and I wasn't in any imminent danger, other than being lost at depth.

When I got back to the boat and they later came up, the second diver the one that assisted me more, reaffirmed me that he wanted to make sure I had enough gas to return and that when he saw that I was okay he proceeded to let me be.

The other diver which in my opinion was subjective about his views and a bit arrogant in the way he spoke made no comments to me. He spoke more to Mike Mills and I would over hear his conversation.

He was the type of diver that badmouthed a site that Mike Mills is about to travel to, I think Honduras or some close other dive site in that area. He mentioned nothing but negative things about his experience. I got a bad vibe from him in the beginning and it was well confirmed when my ignorance took me to ask him for assistance.

I learned a lot about this dive Ken, trust me I am to blame not the two divers down there. But if it were me and some diver needed me, lost and confused, I could've been narced and not known, I would have assisted brining him back to the surface.

But then again, these are experienced divers that paid for recreational diving not a training session to help dumb divers like me find a stupide anchor line that I should have gotten the first time.

Like mentioned earlier, Ken I feel a lot comfortable diving with you, Ron, Carrie,Brandon, Sarah, Michelle, Mike Mill, Robin, Jeff just to name a few. I know what type of equipment you guys have and you make me feel part of the group.

That is why I'm glad I made the MAG and made them part of my diving experience. It reinforces the diving bond betweeen good and bad diving.

MG

 

[mikeguerrero]

Ken,

The safety sausage I have is oral inflate only, so how would I deploy it at depth? it does have a metal ring on it for what appears to be for a reel but I'm not sure.

It is rather long, six feet and says in writing, Diver Down Below. The nipple to inflate it is black with a metal twist that locks the air in. Before you blow into it you must push it with your mouth to get the chamber to open and then once it's inflated the metal twist can prevent it from opening if you purge it.

I will try to take a picture of it so you can see what I have.

MG

 

[rhlee]

... btw, one thing I forgot to mention. A critical feature of a bag to be deployed underwater is that it has to have an overpressure valve (OPV) of some sort.

 

[mikeguerrero]

... btw, one thing I forgot to mention. A critical feature of a bag to be deployed underwater is that it has to have an overpressure valve (OPV) of some sort.

Well,

That clearly rules out the one I have. It can only be deployed while I'm at the surface. I will purchase the one Rhlee mentioned for deploying below the water.

Once I make it to the surface if I want a higher signaling device I will pull out my 6 foot sausage.

Mike G

 

[Chuck Tribolet]

... btw, one thing I forgot to mention. A critical feature of a bag to be deployed underwater is that it has to have an overpressure valve (OPV) of some sort.

I disagree.

An open bottom bag can be deployed at depth. Now, if it flops
over, it gets empty and isn't much use until you redeploy it.

And a simple sausage can be deployed at depth provided you
don't overfill it. Simple high school physics: 33', don't fill past
half way. Thank you, Mr. Dobosh, Rincon High School,
1966-1967 (I think, might have been 67-68).
OK?

 

[rhlee]

I disagree.

An open bottom bag can be deployed at depth. Now, if it flops
over, it gets empty and isn't much use until you redeploy it.

And a simple sausage can be deployed at depth provided you
don't overfill it. Simple high school physics: 33', don't fill past
half way. Thank you, Mr. Dobosh, Rincon High School,
1966-1967 (I think, might have been 67-68).
OK?

Ok, sure. I was speaking for closed-circuit bags.

The way I see it, the bag is only useful for signalling if it is full (otherwise it becomes a flaccid... noodle). (With a closed-circuit bag,) Without an OPV, you'd have to guesstimate based on depth how much gas to put in based on depth to get it full, but not "too full"...

 

[Brewski]

Mike I agree with Chuck You don't need another SMB. you just need to practice with the one you have. Remember to allow room for expansion. The one you describe sounds like the one I carry. get a finger spool, and practice with it in a controlled setting.

 

[mikeguerrero]

Mike I agree with Chuck You don't need another SMB. you just need to practice with the one you have. Remember to allow room for expansion. The one you describe sounds like the one I carry. get a finger spool, and practice with it in a controlled setting.

Ron,

How would I inflate it underwater? I'm a little confused on that part but any ideas would be greatly appreciated. I do know that you have to push the valve in on the tip to allow air to enter the chamber.

This is what made it hard when my mouth was so cold, I couldn't produce enough force to drive the air into the ***. And on top of that I had to push the tip in with my teeth and then blow, it was hard but I ended up getting it fully erected after 3 minutes of play.

MG