Missing diver in Tacoma Washington (Les Davis)

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

Stupid idea: is there any merit to incorporating a "surface and dump weights" training skill into the basic scuba training? I personally have NEVER dumped my weights (on purpose, had a bad rental belt clasp once, not my fault!). I think this idea is overboard, but sometimes safety measures need us to break out normal thinking patterns.

If it was considered "normal" to always dump weights when you got to the surface, and you only retained them if you were really, really happy.

I think this is a brilliant mental exercise, actually. No, you can't physically practice dumping weights at the end of every dive, but you could certainly consider end-of-dive weight-dumping the default which you choose not to do each time you surface and everything is fine. I think this would dramatically reduce the likelihood of forgetting all about the weights in a crisis, which is what seems now to happen too often.

I think this can save people. I'm adding it to my personal checklist.
 
...
Stupid idea: is there any merit to incorporating a "surface and dump weights" training skill into the basic scuba training? ...

It is. From the PADI Instructor Manual (re: Open Water Diver course):

Emergency Weight Drop — During any dive, in either confined or open water, at the surface in water too deep in which to stand, with a deflated BCD, have student divers use the weight system’s quick release, to pull clear and drop sufficient weight to become positively buoyant.

 
For those of you asking about the dive site, it was created using large chunks of decking from an old bridge ... massive rectangles of concrete piled on top of each other. That's where people generally go when they dive there, because it provides shelter for all sorts of interesting critters. If she fell between some of those structures, she may be laying there, well hidden, in which case tidal movement won't be an issue. On the other hand, if she landed in an open area, it's possible that tidal movement ... which has seen exchanges up to 15 feet since the accident ... could move her body considerably, even though the area isn't generally known to be current sensitive. It gets deep in a hurry in Commencement Bay. Gray mentioned Lobster Shop Wall, which is about a quarter-mile west of Les Davis ... people have been known to go to depths of over 300 feet off that wall ... on a shore dive. But you don't have to go that far to get very deep. Adjacent to the dive site is an outfall pipe that runs down to 165 feet. I and others have done this dive from the Les Davis entry, and tides on a strong ebb would move in that direction. Below the pipe it falls away to over 200 feet depth rather quickly.

Police and Coast Guard are trained in recovery far beyond anything a recreational diver (even those who are tech trained) are qualified to do. But they're not generally as experienced or as well-equipped as some of our local divers. I've seen posts urging our dive community to get involved in the search. It's not a bad idea ... a local diver found a friend of mine at over 200 feet a few years back months after he disappeared on a night dive in that area. But I would urge anyone making that attempt to not consider recovery ... mark the position and let those more qualified in recovery take over. Moving a body, no matter how well intentioned, permanently damages evidence critical to an investigation of what happened. Let those trained in such things do that part correctly.

This is a tragic accident. I'm seriously concerned about the well-being of her son. FWIW - I've been hammered elsewhere recently for my previous post here, and I expect more of the same from this one. But as I noted on that other forum, if my comments help someone else to think ... to question ... to recognize a developing or potential problem that can keep them from putting themselves into a similar circumstance, then it's worth any anger from the "let's not talk about this" crowd. I'm cognizant of their reasoning ... family will almost certainly be reading these comments ... and I urge all of you to be respectful in what you say and how you say it. But discussing accidents is why this forum exists, and if done in the right way it is beneficial to the dive community as a whole. Those who are too raw emotionally should just not come here for a while ... we all deal with our emotional needs in our own way ... and for some, talking about it is therapy.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added June 14th, 2015 at 06:48 AM ----------

... a new article ... more tragic news ... this woman's kids are now orphans ...

Police identify Portland woman who died on Tacoma scuba diving trip | OregonLive.com

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
Quote Originally Posted by giffenk
If it was considered "normal" to always dump weights when you got to the surface, and you only retained them if you were really, really happy.

That is the way I was taught, back in the day when we did not have a BC. Dropping the belt was last on the list of emergency procedures but always kept first in your mind, so that when you came up with nothing else you knew exactly what to do. We were also trained to ditch all our gear and swim home if it got to that, to this day I won't own any gear I'm not willing to dump.

I think this is a brilliant mental exercise, actually. No, you can't physically practice dumping weights at the end of every dive, but you could certainly consider end-of-dive weight-dumping the default which you choose not to do each time you surface and everything is fine. I think this would dramatically reduce the likelihood of forgetting all about the weights in a crisis, which is what seems now to happen too often.

I think this can save people. I'm adding it to my personal checklist.

You can physically practice dumping weights a lot more than you might think. On any shore dive I drop my weights in the shallows, assuming I know I can find them again, or drop them on the beach before removing any other gear. My weight belt looks like s**t and I have to replace it on a regular basis from the abuse, but I don't "think" I know how to drop it. On a boat I just remove it first to keep in practice but don't let it hit the deck. I don't think an intellectual understanding of dropping a weight belt and one actual drop in practice is enough to summon the procedure as one quickly moves down the road to panic.

My biggest fear is to be caught dead in the water with my weigh belt on.

I have needed to drop my weight belt twice, once on the surface on SCUBA (no BC days) and once underwater freediving. The first may have saved my life , the second did.



Bob
---------------------------------------------
That's my point, people, by and large, are not taught that diving can be deadly, they are taught how safe it is, and they are not equipped with the skills, taught and trained to the level required to be useful in an emergency.
 
Chances are that she could have simply pressed one button and inflated the BC to stay on the surface. It is possible she was out of air or had a scuba failure, but we know this is unlikely. So once panic starts, inflating a working BC and/or ditching lead may be impossible.

But the comment above about practicing ditching lead seems important - and something i had not really considered previously. A diver who uses a weight belt, goes through the motion of manipulating and removing the weight belt hundreds of times. Before and after EVERY dive, the weight belt is accessed.

For people with integrated weights, the weights may very rarely be removed. Plus when they remove the weight pockets, the BC is probably sitting in a rack and the removal process is very different than when wearing the unit.

Who knows what kind of weight system was being used? I learned to dive well before weight integration was common, the first attempts were pretty poor design and they are improving, but I avoid weight integration for a variety of reasons.
 
Body of missing scuba diver found in Commencement Bay | Local & Regional | Seattle News, Weather, Sports, Breaking News | KOMO News
TACOMA, Wash. - The body of a 50-year-old scuba diver missing since Wednesday has been recovered in Tacoma's Commencement Bay.

Candace Sneed of Portland disappeared in the water near the Les Davis Pier while on her first open water dive. Crews spent two days searching for her but were unsucessful.

Then on Saturday a recreational diver discovered a woman's body at the bottom of 40 feet of water not far from where Sneed was last seen. A crew was dispatched to recover her.

Loretta Cool of the Tacoma police says the body is presumed to be missing diver, since her gear and clothing matches what Sneed was wearing when she disappeared

The body was turned over to the Pierce County Medical Exmainer for positive identification.
 
Right on Bob! I hope any newer divers reading this thread takes your post to heart!

With all due respect, we would love to wait until the investigation is concluded. But the reality is that facts from an investigation are almost never released in cases of dive fatality ... so what you're asking is, in effect, that we simply not talk about it. That's not the purpose of this forum ... nor will it serve anyone who might be reading this in an attempt to learn what went wrong.

Since you're closer to the situation, perhaps you can answer some questions and help clarify some things.

1. How many experienced divers were in this group?
2. Did the dive guide make an attempt to pair up newly-certified divers with experienced ones?
3. Was any form of separation plan discussed prior to the dive?
4. What was the visibility like on the day of the accident?
5. Was there any plan or option given the new divers for calling the dive if the conditions made them uncomfortable?

I ask these questions as a local dive professional with something like 3,000 dives in Puget Sound ... including more than 100 at the site where this accident occurred. What follows is my opinion, based on what little I know of the accident. I'll say up-front that it may or may not have bearing on what actually happened ... in the absence of information, one must "read between the lines" of what's reported. But the purpose of this forum is to discuss and share information that may prevent such accidents from happening to someone else. New divers, in particular, are ill-equipped to know when they're putting themselves into an ill-advised situation ... and I'll say up-front that, based on what I've read, this dive was ill-advised from the beginning. I understand the reasons why they scheduled it, but I also think they probably didn't go about it in the most prudent manner.

First, this woman and her 12-year old son were recently certified in order to go on a trip to Fiji. This dive was scheduled as a way to provide them with some experience prior to that trip. It's been reported that the son was one of the people on the dive. It's unclear that he was buddied with his mom ... and I hope that he was not, or if he was that there was an experienced diver accompanying them as a 3-person buddy team. In poor vis conditions, that would have been difficult enough, but manageable. A "group dive" of eight divers in the conditions we've been experiencing lately would not at all have been manageable. In those conditions, the prudent approach is to divide the group into pairs ... or teams of 3 ... and designate each as a "primary buddy team". Did this happen? If not, why not? When diving in a group you should always have a separation plan. It usually goes something like this ... "Stay with your primary buddy team. In the event that you separate from the group but remain with your team, conduct your dive as normally. If you lose a primary buddy, surface and remain on the surface until you regroup there or you summon assistance." Was there such a plan? There should have been.

The dive site chosen is appropriate for new divers ... she might possibly have learned how to dive there ... but conditions can be challenging when vis is poor, as it has been for the past several weeks due to the gorgeous weather and how that drives plankton blooms. Add in the generally poor finning techniques for new divers and it makes seeing anything beyond a 3 to 5 foot range almost impossible ... particularly in situations where one team is following another. It's easy to see how separation can occur ... it's almost inevitable under those conditions, and you have to anticipate it and prepare to deal with it. Under these circumstances, planning a "group dive" is inadvisable, and any local dive professional should know better ... particularly with newly-certified divers who have never experienced such conditions outside the very artificial and controlled conditions of an OW class.

Now, what do conditions like that do for the new diver? Generally, it induces stress ... in part because of the fact that they're new and insecure with their skills, and in part because they're really not yet equipped to deal with low-vis situations. And stress does a couple of bad things ... it induces "tunnel vision", which can reduce a diver's awareness of what's going on around them, and it causes their breathing rate to increase, which will cause them to go through their air faster than anticipated. Either of these can lead to events that will increase the likelihood of a bad outcome. Divers generally get introduced to how to deal with those conditions in their next-level (AOW) class. In that respect, the site may not have been appropriate for the newly certified diver, because of conditions on the day of the dive.

Did she have a dive light? There's a reason why virtually every local diver not only carries one on every dive, but they generally choose pretty powerful ones that are capable of cutting through the kind of murk we get this time of year ... without a dive light it's almost impossible to keep track of a diver outside a range of a few feet ... and even then it's almost impossible to identify who that diver is without some form of unique ID like the color of their tank or exposure suit. If those are all the same, you really can't tell who you're diving next to ... particularly in a group setting. And that would explain why this group didn't realize she wasn't among them until they surfaced.

So, all that said, and considering that the purpose of this forum is to learn from accidents like this one, I'm going to offer some thoughts. Again, I'm basing these not on what really occurred ... because we really don't know and probably never will ... but rather, conclusions drawn from reading various accounts of the story.

1. Don't dive in groups in Puget Sound. If diving with a large group, divide yourselves into pairs or, at most, 3-person primary buddy teams. Your responsibility is to your primary team. Your separation plan revolves around your team.

2. HAVE a separation plan. Don't assume ... speak it out during the pre-dive briefing. Make sure that everyone understands what it is, and agrees to it. Not doing so only invites confusion that can lead to someone getting in trouble and having no one available to help them.

3. Make sure that the dive is within your capabilities. That starts from the time you sign up for the dive ... make sure that the dive site chosen is appropriate for your level of skill and experience. In this case it was ... that might be about the only thing that happened in this case that I'm comfortable with, based on what I've read. Once on-site, check out the conditions. If there's anything about them that make you uncomfortable ... vis, weather, surf, or anything else that makes you hesitate, CALL THE DIVE! New divers have a tendency to trust the more experienced divers to make that call for them ... DO NOT DO THAT! Only you are responsible for your safety ... take charge of that responsibility. Any diver should feel comfortable being able to say "not today". I'm sure there was pressure on these new divers to do this dive ... either internally, because they really wanted to do it, or external ... things like the fact that they paid for a dive, drove all the way up here, and by God they were going to do it no matter what. Don't do that ... the potential consequences aren't worth it. There's always another time to go diving.

4. If you're organizing a dive, make an effort to pair up the new divers with more experienced divers. Plan and organize the dive around those principles. If you can't or don't want to do that, then don't invite the new divers along. They are going to put pressure on themselves, and push themselves, because no new diver wants to "ruin" the dive for the more experienced folks. Well guess what ... the very best way to ruin someone's dive is to have an accident ... I guarantee you that NOBODY had a good time that day. Nobody ever does when there's an accident. So don't push yourselves, or put others in a position where the likelihood of that happening increases to an unacceptable level.

Finally, I was dismayed to learn that this woman's 12-year old son was involved in the dive. I seriously hope that he wasn't her dive buddy ... not because he did anything wrong, but because this young man will spend the rest of his life blaming himself for the death of his mother ... and that's probably even more awful than the fact that she died. Regardless of his involvement, it's going to impact him hugely ... and I hope some thought is being given to providing him with some professional counseling. No matter what happens, he has to go on living ... and that's a very heavy burden for a 12-year old to live with. I hope someone close to the situation is dealing with that issue.

Nothing good ever comes from diving accidents. They're tragic ... but in almost every case they could have been avoided with a bit of forethought and/or preparation ... people put themselves into situations where the risks exceed reasonable levels, and when something goes wrong they aren't equipped to deal with it. For those of you who have made it this far through my ramblings ... particularly the new divers ... please make the effort to think about what can go wrong, and how you'd deal with it if it did. BE HONEST with yourself about your ability to deal with an anticipated problem ... we're all very good at thinking ourselves better equipped to deal with them than we probably are. Practice your skills in benign conditions until you can do them without conscious effort. And it requires practice ... nobody ever "masters" a skill in OW class, you only get introduced to how to "master" it ... under very controlled and artificial conditions. The moment when you actually need those emergency skills you learned in OW, you'll be taken by surprise, probably in conditions nothing like what you experienced, and there WON'T be an instructor within arm's reach to bail you out if you do something wrong. So make sure your first few dives are in conditions that don't stress your abilities to begin with ... and preferably do them with someone who has more experience than you do.

There's just so much about this story that raises red flags with me. Granted, in the absence of real information we can only speculate. But, to my concern, the accident started with the idea that a guided "group" dive in Puget Sound was a prudent thing to do. Guided dives here are generally one-on-one ... or one guide per buddy team. There's just no other way to do them with a reasonable expectation of keeping the group together. Unless this shop was providing an experienced guide for each buddy team, the accident began with a bad idea and cascaded into tragedy from there ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
I've been hammered elsewhere recently for my previous post here

However, I (and my LDS owner; neither of us has any involvement with the shop involved) think what you had to say was spot-on.

I've heard the usual random amorphous chatter "around" since this thread started, some of which would have put the dive shop involved in a slightly better light. But there's nothing that I can credibly source so I shouldn't pass it along. We don't seem to be hearing more from the group participants; it would take a lot of fortitude on the part of those folks to provide a detailed report. When I think about my comparatively minor scary experiences underwater, I have to respect whatever they want (or don't want) to do.
 
Well, for my 2 psi, I am friends with the dive shop owner, and went thru them in 2003 to get my OW cert. A couple years later I took both my kids there for their OW. While I dont know what happened at Les Davis, I think the fact that I took my kids there for their own OW speaks quite well of how safe and adequate the shop conducted training and the shop dives. I have been in and out of this shop over the years, and have always found them to be very professional. My heartfelt condolences to the family of this woman.
 
Do not know about this particular case. But sometimes folks get complacent. We got away with it before so we can do it again. And conditions vary from day to day. Different students can have different experiences with the same op.

I have come across "lost" divers doing OW dives and returned them to the group and the instructor never knew it.

At LaJolla shores I was with a private DM/Instructor for a dive while on business. He saw the big swells and recommended we bail. I agreed. We along with several other instructors/DM who had decided not to dive watched a shop march a large class up to the edge. Some of those around me put wet suits back on because they could see what was about to happen. The herd of students and their DMs charged during a slack moment. A big swell hit as they were in the water. Some of the class and all the DM made it out past the swells. Several students never made it out. A couple students had to be assisted back out of the water by those on shore. Some studnets staggered out by themselves quite a few yards down current. No way were all students being monitored through out this training dive. Those around me were not surprised that this particular shop did this.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

Back
Top Bottom