Minimum requirements for tech courses

[phoenix31tt]

I said it's from experience working for dive shops in tourist areas. By horrible I mean they need 'help' or advice, maybe horrible is a bit to strong... lets say you can't drop them of at the outer reef in strong current without a guide. 50 dives is not a lot. I know a bunch of operators that wont take people on their boat with less than 50 dives and some also what you to do a check dive.
I've seen good divers at less than 50 dives. You look at it from a 'wanna have fun point' I see it from a 'reduce the risk for tourist divers' point. To me, a good diver is a good/strong swimmer, stays calm in strong current, deep water and on choppy surface, good sac rate, great buoyancy and proper propulsion technique and good situational awareness. And it's a nice extra when they don't puke. Lot's of people don't have that down with 50 dives or less and that's OK... because they haven't got a lot practice.
Is there anything you can be great at after 50 hours?

Some divers spend more time than the actual dive learning and practicing though, pool work, video etc... And I'm in a tourist destination too... Not working but diving... All I'm saying is with with these tourists I haven't seen a much bigger difference in 50 and 200... Most of then need remediation in general and I suppose it's because of poor training and the ability for them to actually WANT to improve... As far as they're concerned it's all good and they're having fun... But those tourists shouldn't be used as a guide to setting the number of divers for beginning a tech diving course... That's all... If we use tourists divers as a guide it would greatly skew the numbers and eliminate a vast number of good candidates...

That's where the instructor comes into play on determining who is ready and when they can actually pass a course


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[Bennno]

Actually, I've trained a lot of divers and I can categorically say this is false. There may be *some* correlation of experience to problem solving but it's a very personal aspect of diving.

You think it's false, but people can work on their stress resistance to a degree and can learn to deal with their stress better and that does make a difference. I think it's more then 'some correlation', people can work on their mental game... but sure, there needs to be some talent.

I still can't believe that all you guys are so eagerly defending the sinking standards of scuba training... will anyone be bothered when people start their deco diving at 10 dives or people do their owd on ccr? There is one agency were you can become a cave instructor at 30 cave dives, does that bother anyone? Probably not, ey? I have no doubt that agencies lower standard to sell more courses to students and instructor and not because it's a great idea.

 

[Diver0001]

I understand what you're saying, Benno. My point is that few people actually dive enough for any kind of CBT based changes to get much of a foot hold. We do, however, spend a lot of time at work and in other aspects of our lives where behaviours are trained and reinforced to a much greater degree. As I mentioned above, scuba training at the entry level doesn't account for the trending nature of technical learning so it's really hard to set a bar.

As for the rest, I'm not going to respond to that. You really need to work on your communication skills, mate. I'm not debating anything with you that you deliver in a passive-aggressive mode. If you want to debate me on this then you will do it with respect or not at all.

R..

 

[Bennno]

I understand what you're saying, Benno. My point is that few people actually dive enough for any kind of CBT based changes to get much of a foot hold. We do, however, spend a lot of time at work and in other aspects of our lives where behaviours are trained and reinforced to a much greater degree. As I mentioned above, scuba training at the entry level doesn't account for the trending nature of technical learning so it's really hard to set a bar.

As for the rest, I'm not going to respond to that. You really need to work on your communication skills, mate. I'm not debating anything with you that you deliver in a passive-aggressive mode. If you want to debate me on this then you will do it with respect or not at all.

R..

People have over and over stated that number of dive doesn't matter, getting into deco early is good, lot's of amazing 20 dive divers are better that lot's of people with 200 dive... those weird claims drive me nuts. It's not like I'm making stuff up or started diving yesterday. Accidents happen because people take these dives lightly. I sure am a moron for even getting into this discussion though.

 

[Diver0001]

People have over and over stated that number of dive doesn't matter, getting into deco early is good, lot's of amazing 20 dive divers are better that lot's of people with 200 dive... those weird claims drive me nuts. It's not like I'm making stuff up or started diving yesterday. Accidents happen because people take these dives lightly. I sure am a moron for even getting into this discussion though.

I don't recall anyone saying that getting into deco diving early is good. I didn't read every post though. What people did say over and over to you is that *only* looking at the number of dives someone has isn't a reliable indicator of skill. When you evaluate someone for entry into a diving course there is really only one good way to do it... dive with them and see for yourself what they can and cannot handle.

From the AOW course onward I don't know of anyone who doesn't first dive with a potential student to judge what they need to learn. During this evaluation if they're not up to it then they will bounce out regardless of how many dives are in their log book.

R..

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[CptTightPants21]

You think it's false, but people can work on their stress resistance to a degree and can learn to deal with their stress better and that does make a difference. I think it's more then 'some correlation', people can work on their mental game... but sure, there needs to be some talent.

I still can't believe that all you guys are so eagerly defending the sinking standards of scuba training... will anyone be bothered when people start their deco diving at 10 dives or people do their owd on ccr? There is one agency were you can become a cave instructor at 30 cave dives, does that bother anyone? Probably not, ey? I have no doubt that agencies lower standard to sell more courses to students and instructor and not because it's a great idea.

We seem to have our wires slightly crossed and are talking about the same coin from different directions. We are talking about part hypothetical and part practical aspect of a diver starting tech training at 25 dives.

A few key parameters
1. I would would consider intro to tech/fundies to be the beginning of tech training with intro/AN/DP being the "core", I wouldn't call myself a tech diver without those 3 (or full cave)
2. As has been stated many times, just because you can take a course doesn't mean you will pass the course.

You keep saying how number of dives matters so much and we are arguing that experience counts more. If a brand new OW student had highly competent tech divers as friends/mentors who drilled him and trained him in a variety of conditions do you think he could be tech ready in 25 dives? 50? I tend to think assuming a healthy combination of skill based dives with "fun dives" a diver would be ready for intro to tech in 25 dives and ready for AN/DP at 50 assuming that he worked on areas that needed improvement.

We are coming from the angle, that yes, theoretically (and somewhat practically) a diver could be ready for intro to tech at 25 dives if he had the right foundation and training up to that point. Do I expect to find many divers with 25 dives ready for tech training,no. Is it possible, yes. You seem to be coming from the angle that the diver has no formal basis to learn tech and that he must develop the skills naturally over 100+ dives.

Number of dives means nothing without the actual experience. I actually met an very active OW diver with 300+ dives and 50+ OW certifications who had no idea how to tie a line reel and sucked at shooting a lift bag. A few weeks ago with had a huge thread because a poster who had 500+ dives (may have been over 1000, I forget) and had been diving for 30 years didn't know how a manifold worked and that you didn't need to fill both valves. My point (and the point of the majority) is that number of dives (even experience as you put it) doesn't mean anything if you are not learning and experiencing the "right" subject matter. A person who has been exposed to the "right" subject matter from the beginning and practices it would be ready for tech training far sooner than your "numbers diver".

 

[WhiteSands]

I disagree that the number of dives are meaningless. How many times has the diver with 25 dives tried to hold a safety stop? Done ascents and descents? Adjusted his wing by inflating/dumping? Cleared his mask underwater? Been exposed to different kinds of underwater environments and conditions and be able to stay calm and deal with the conditions? Now compare that with someone who has done 200 dives and practiced those same skills over 200 dives.

It's just logical that the same person who has done the same skill 200 times is going to be much better at it then when he has done it just 25 times. Are there divers with 200 dives who still suck? Sure. Are there divers with 25 dives who are good? Sure. But what is the distribution of these occurrences? I suspect the majority of people with 200 dives are going to be better at it then those with just 25 dives.

Plus, what kind of mindset does a person have who goes and takes up technical diving with just 25 dives? Is that kind of mindset or personality suited for technical diving?

If I had to pick a number I'd say a minimum of 100 dives.

 

[Bennno]

I didn't read every post though.

Well, apparently you read enough to determine that I am the a$$hole here.
People have said that it's good to start tec diving early.

Again, I never said that number of dive is an absolute measure of skill and said many times that there is no magic number, I said GENERALLY people with more dive/experience are better and I did say that 25 dives to start deco diving is to low however good you are or think you are.
I've basically been preaching all my instructor-life that people should take it slow, go diving and not just do courses one after the other, in other words don't do OW, AOW, Rescue and then take a deco class. I still stand by that and I will keep telling that to people... I must have wrote this 10 times know.

@Cpttight
That I also wrote already, but here it goes again: I think Fundi/Intro to tec is fine for everyone who wants to do it, because I draw the line were you need more dives at deco diving. If you think some people should seek out deco training at 25 dives we disagree, which is fine. There is nothing I can say to that I haven't already said here.

---------- Post added July 20th, 2015 at 03:50 AM ----------

It's just logical that the same person who has done the same skill 200 times is going to be much better at it then when he has done it just 25 times. Are there divers with 200 dives who still suck? Sure. Are there divers with 25 dives who are good? Sure. But what is the distribution of these occurrences? I suspect the majority of people with 200 dives are going to be better at it then those with just 25 dives.

Plus, what kind of mindset does a person have who goes and takes up technical diving with just 25 dives? Is that kind of mindset or personality suited for technical diving?

If I had to pick a number I'd say a minimum of 100 dives.

I loves me some common sense.
You are not gonna get much love for that statement on this thread WhiteSands, but I agree with you!

 

[Jack Hammer]

I think if someone thinks they want to get into tech diving a minimum of 50 dives and nitrox should be required to take an intro to tech course. This is should be an easily attainable number of dives for anyone serious about going tech. I also think in order to take an actual tech course, AN/DP etc., they should have at minimum rescue and 100 dives. Again, this is an easily attainable goal for anyone serious about this path. The instructors ”should” weed out those not qualified to continue

 

[phoenix31tt]

Hypotethical question... which of the following situations would you rather, and i'll use the majority of cases you probably will see in the real world (ow/aow, not so good with buoyancy, propulsion and trim but having a blast diving none the less):

1. Diver applies for course having the 25 min dives, you assess him and determine he needs an intro to tech or other

2. Diver applies for course having 50-100 dives, you assess him and determine he needs an intro to tech or other

From what i've heard gathered, most of your candidates require that intro to tech anyways... wouldn't it be better to catch that earlier @ 25 dives than later @ 50 or 100 dives when there is way more habit ingrained?

I think a big point that people are missing is that... 25 dives isn't what guarantees you a spot... it's just a lower limiter... the difference between a general 25 diver and a 50 diver isn't life and death, in all likelihood both of them will require "extra" training anyways right? I think it would make sense to catch it earlier than later?

or maybe a better way for agencies to phrase it would be... "meets pass requirements for intro to tech?"... and put the 25 dive minimum on the intro to tech cert