Minimum requirements for tech courses

[KenGordon]

Cool, just post replies to stuff you haven't read.
You wrote this: "Doesn't matter if the student has 2 dives, 2 dozen dives, 200 dives, or 2,000 dives."
It least I'm consistent in what I'm saying.


I'm just saying what Diver0001 said in the post he deleted.

This is a potentially interesting thread. You are just adding noise. Please have your arguments with Diver0001 and RJP by pm.

I took a student in for his first two dives on Sunday. Part of the conversation between the dives was about why buoyancy and trim are important. Part of that was telling him when he does deco dives he will need to really hold stops, no messing. He is quite good, keen and will be on trips involving a few minutes of stops in a year or so. He will not be diving mixed gasses or anything wild and crazy but he will not be running out of gas on a safety stop, or getting in with no idea how long his gas might last at the depth.

Rec vs Tec is really a marketing thing. Mostly people want to jump in nice and easy swim round and get out when the guide tells them. Some people want to have a clue about what they are doing. Let them take the courses, if they have a bad attitude or can't manage the skills they will fail, but will still be learning.

 

[boulderjohn]

How likely is it that they ever had one of their hoses burst under water, their dry suit flood (or even dry suit experience)? Have they ever had a runaway ascent to to BC or drysuit failure? Have they gotten sick under water and thrown up into their regulator? Has their buddy gone into panic mode or needed a live rescue? Has the diver had any come to Jesus moment and lived through it? Any current from hell situation maybe?
Complete this list with your own favorite experience dives.

The chances of experiencing any of these situations and learning from it, is much more likely after 250 dives than it is after 25.

I started tech diving when I had a bit over 400 dives, but in those 400 dives, I had never seen a hose burst underwaer, let alone had one happen to me. (I still haven't, BTW.) I had enver had a runaway ascent or a dry suit failure. In fact, I had never worn a dry suit. I had never gotten sick under water and thrown up in my regulator. I never had a buddy panic or need a rescue--never saw anything like a panicked diver. I am now well over 1,000 dives, and the only things on your list I have ever expereinced is throwing up in my regulator once and several dry suit floods.

That is because almsot all of those first 400 dives or so were in benign tropical waters. I did not start to learn the skills and gain the experience you really need for technical diving until I started taking technical diving classes.

 

[Edward3c]

I don't feel that requiring a bare minimum experience of 100 dives before venturing into more involved diving, e.g. accelerated decompression, trimix or cave diving, is "unrealistic".

Until recently there was no distinction between diving to 20m on a single cylinder and 30+ with a twin-set and stage bottles, it was all just diving.

If a student wanted to learn to dive using a twin-set, I would suggest they get the basics down with a single first. But would still teach if they insisted that that's what they would be using anyway. I have had one such student who did this, she has after 4 years; and becoming an instructor; changed to single cylinder with pony.

To be eligible to do the BSAC “Accelerated Decompression Procedures” SDC[1] a candidate must meet:

Entry requirement:
Entry level is BSAC Sports Diver who has completed the 2007 syllabus (with nitrox content) and has been endorsed as a Nitrox Diver, plus 20 additional dives including depth experience to 30 metres.

Alternatively, applicants must hold an acceptable diving and nitrox qualification with another agency which equates to the above standards. All students must hold gold standard buoyancy from the Buoyancy and Trim BSAC workshop.

This SDC is not classed a 'technical' its just club diving.

The first 'technical' BSAC SDC is “Sport Mixed Gas Diver”.

Entry requirement:
This course is open to all BSAC Sports Diver (or acceptable alternative) with depth qualification to 35 metres with 60 logged dives. Also be a BSAC Advanced Nitrox Diver or BSAC Accelerated Decompression Procedures Diver (or equivalent).

People need to take it one step at a time and not become a dive instructor or, in this case, a technical diver within the first 6 months of their diving career.

That would seriously damage the business model of quite a few dive operators round the world. No more zero-to-hero.

Kind regards

1. Skill Development Course.

 

[nakatomi]

I started tech diving when I had a bit over 400 dives, but in those 400 dives, I had never seen a hose burst underwaer, let alone had one happen to me. (I still haven't, BTW.) I had enver had a runaway ascent or a dry suit failure. In fact, I had never worn a dry suit. I had never gotten sick under water and thrown up in my regulator. I never had a buddy panic or need a rescue--never saw anything like a panicked diver. I am now well over 1,000 dives, and the only things on your list I have ever expereinced is throwing up in my regulator once and several dry suit floods.

That is because almsot all of those first 400 dives or so were in benign tropical waters. I did not start to learn the skills and gain the experience you really need for technical diving until I started taking technical diving classes.

In all fairness, the list of things that can be experienced were just examples. And not all that I listed happened to me personally, some of it was in the buddy team.

We do have something in common though, it also took me about 400 dives as well before I started with the first technical classes.
Reading "The Last Dive" by Bernie Chowdhury played a major part in delaying it.

 

[RJP]

It all depends on specifics of experience, rather than dive count. Of my first 100 dives, I'd say 50 or so of them were NJ wreck dives (including two with Bernie) and I had already received multiple tech/overhead certs. I'm not sure whether an extra 200 dives looking at pretty fishes in 60fsw in places like Bonaire and Cayman Islands would have made me any more prepared for tech training.

Just as with John, I've done hundreds and hundreds of tech/deco dives over the past 10 years and have yet to encounter most of the things on your experience list. So perhaps I'm STILL not ready for tech training?

;d

 

[nakatomi]

It all depends on specifics of experience, rather than dive count.

Exactly, that's why I came up with a rough ballpark figure of 100-300 (my opinion, everyone may have his own). And obviously some people will never be ready for technical training.

And I'm not surprised about your path. I know people who are diving at the full cave level or doing full trimix dives and have less than 100 dives logged, some of them barely with half that number. I just happen to think it's not a clever approach and it's not something I will personally support.

 

[boulderjohn]

We do have something in common though, it also took me about 400 dives as well before I started with the first technical classes. Reading "The Last Dive" by Bernie Chowdhury played a major part in delaying it

What delayed me was living in Colorado. Our state motto is "We're just a plane flight away from great scuba." In the years that got me 400 dives, I had never seen a technical diver. I had never seen anyone using the skills associated with it. I had never seen the equipment associated with it. But I was a scuba instructor, about as knowledgeable and skilled as all the other scuba instructors I knew in Colorado. When we finally started a tech program, I was the first enrollee, and I was shocked at how much I had to learn. It was humiliating.

In contrast, last October I did an AOW with someone who had just completed OW the week before. He saw my dry suit, BP/W, long hose, etc., and started asking questions. He was immediately interested, and he took a class from me that is similar to GUE Fundamentals. We did the Deep Diver specialty. He bought the right equipment. So here he was a pretty new diver, using tech equipment, swimming in horizontal trim, and doing all the kicks. He did not have a lot of experience, but he had a lot of skills. I was away for a few months, and when I returned, he had accumulated about 50 dives in a variety of settings, and he had practiced, practiced, practiced. He may not have had 400 dives, but it took me a long time after my 400 dives to overcome the bad habits I had picked up while doing them and get to his current skill level.

And, yes, he started the TDI Tech ptorgram, and he is a TDI Decompression Procedures Diver now.

 

[decompression]

As shown in this thread the preq of number of dives is essentially useless. The preq I prefer and required by the agency I teach for, is courses. I know when the student has passed the prerequisite courses he should be ready for tec training. I'm also very glad to be authorized an assessment dive as well to ensure the individual is ready or to make recommendations on what is required to make them ready.


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[phoenix31tt]

Using a dive number as an indication that someone has experienced some kind of failure or something where they had to "keep their cool" is not really accurate as far as i've seen/read/heard... i myself have >100.. all in "tropical" locations but some high current and deep dives >100..., murky water in Trinidad. As I've said before i've never had any major incident underwater and I've never seen one myself (my SPG did blow but that was on land before the dive began so no need to panic anyways). Do i wait till a hose blows out on my to start tech training (i know just an example)... almost all of the problems divers experience underwater start with some kind of equipment failure... if i meticulously care for my gear the likelihood of it failing is reduced.

As I stated before the most challenges I've faced in diving was learning how to be a proper diver by just using videos, reading and advice from this board. If i wasn't trying to be a better diver i would've faced no challenges...

I think most people are hovering around the same conclusion that in reality number of dives cannot be used to gauge skill level, experience or readiness. The only real way to do that is to get in the water with the diver... and i've seen it many times with my diving, even on my most recent dive trip.

People say ok <100 dives, just a regular diver... then they see the "tech" gear and they raise an eyebrow... then they dive with us and they're like ok you guys are good we'll focus on the rest of the group... and this is why number of dives should never be a limiter to BEGINNING entry level tech training... i think some people are also not realizing it's really entry level

 

[FinnMom]

30 or 50 is pretty darn few dives, so yes it is useful for cutting out those with unreasonably little experience. While 200 or 500 might not give you a solid idea of how prepared a diver is, having less than 30 is so little that it's entirely fair to say that is too few.

Before my friends and I took our 1st tech course (we did the class as a group of 4) we spent at least 20 dives just practising our basic skills (SMB, valve drills, learning to kick backwards, handling a stage bottle, etc.). And yes, we did already have qualified training in those skills so we weren't training bad habits. The class had more than enough completely new skills to teach us without needing to cover basic skills for an advanced diver. The more solid you are coming into the class, the more you will get out of it.
I'd also hate to pay $700+ for a class and find myself paired with someone who really wasn't prepared for the class. People need to get out and dive instead of collecting cards: 25 dives past open water cert dives is asking almost nothing.