Medical form for dive op?

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pro experimental mRNA gene therapy
I'm reluctant to go too far off on the COVID-19 tangent, but it occurs to me we SB members differ widely in what we're educated in, and that term could be misinterpreted. I'll give a quick 'off the cuff' informal run down based on my admittedly distant relevant education.

1.) DNA is like a genetic blueprint in the cell that contains the information that determines whether the organism is a human, horse, lizard, amoeba, etc...

2.) DNA has genes, which are parts of the DNA that encode the information for a range of traits - and some traits are impacted by multiple genes.

3.) Proteins have a wide range of functions, which include building and maintaining the organism.

4.) We need to get the information encoded in the DNA communicated to tell the proteins what to do.

5.) That's where RNA comes in. RNA functions like 'work orders,' which are copied off the DNA and then used to assemble amino acids into proteins, which then 'do stuff.'

The mRNA COVID-19 vaccines put man-made RNA 'work orders' coding for manufacture of virus spike material into our bodies, which manufacture that; our immune system then learns to recognize it, so when the real virus shows up, our immune system is ready to fight it more effectively. The mRNA is quite temporary and soon gone.

So mRNA vaccines don't introduce genes into the human DNA genome, or alter them, so I don't think they qualify as 'gene therapy.' Reuters has an article - Fact Check-mRNA vaccines are distinct from gene therapy, which alters recipient’s genes.
 
So after reading through this entire thread..... one question might be....... How many folks here think it's OK to lie on any operators medical release form if that's what it takes to get you what you want....which is to allow you continue your trip and dive?

To be completely honest, if I was half-way across the world on the trip of a lifetime, and this was "sprung" on me...... I'd probably fill in the form with whatever answers allowed me to dive. Just say'n.

A lot, but the way the issue is phrased is a big issue. One might rather ask how many think it's okay to withhold information from businesses who would use it to discriminate against them, or impose onerous requirements, on the basis of what the diver considers minor things, based on liability management (that a 'no' checked form helps with)?
Yep.... I totally get and agree with what you are saying. No one wants to be a "liar"....... But the fact is that knowingly putting false information on a form is lying. Withholding information would be more along the lines of a refusal to fill in a part of the form or a refusal to fill in any of it.....and sign. Problem with that is that you're kinda stuck if they spring the form on you without any advanced notice.
A common accusation from past threads on the subject has been that such divers are selfish, jeopardizing dive guides who might need to enact in-water rescues in the event of a crisis, boat staff who might be psychologically traumatized, other divers whose trip might be cut short, etc...
That's also a great point. Unfortunately there are some folks who on one hand will lie to get what they want or need........and then on the other hand will criticize others who lie to get what they want or need. Just the nature of the beast I guess. But I also think that there are varying degrees. If you lie about having asthma, that's one thing. If you lie about taking lipitor for cholesterol, that's another.

Either way, I don't think it's at all fair for an operator or LOB to spring the form on you with no advanced warning........
 
I tend to err on the side of let people know the dangers of diving with poor health and then let them make the decision. I would not have a health form required at all. During your OW class they would discuss more in detail about bad stuff that can happen if you dive with the conditions that are contrainidicated and then you, the diver, makes the decision to dive or not. I would then also shield all operators from liability in diving operations for anything short of running over someone with the boat. If you dive, you assume the risk, period.

Because there is no real enforcement or downside to lying, those that want to dive with medical conditions that are contraindicated will still roll the dice and dive.

Forcing people to have a DAN certified doctor sign off on your form, after a full physical , before you step foot on any boat or any operator takes your business would significantly reduce the number of divers in the water.
 
Forcing people to have a DAN certified doctor sign off on your form, after a full physical
This is making stuff up. The doctor does not need to be "DAN certified" (whatever that means) and a full physical is not required, unless your doctor says you need one, in which case is that a bad idea?
 
That was bad communication on my part. I don't know what is required now as I answer no to everything and that has always been fine when I am asked in the resort settings where I dive. I have never told my doctor I dive. My point was I don't think it should be required at all. I suggest we let people make their own decision after told being told the risk and not have a gatekeeper in the form of a physician, but I do ackolwedge many disagree with that.
 
But the fact is that knowingly putting false information on a form is lying.
Yes, and that's the one thing in all this that bothers me a great deal, the thing I struggle with most. I prefer forthright, plain-spoken dealings, and this isn't. The problem comes in real world situations where you run into problems with forthright, plain-spoken dealings. I usually try to steer away from that angle in these discussions, but maybe I should deal with it. Here goes.

Moral question: is lying ever justified? There are religious and secular viewpoints. Some would immediately conclude it's absolutely condemned, religiously and ethically. Let's explore this.

1.) What about spies? In the course of their duties, the spies we associate with the CIA, undercover cops infiltrating criminal organizations and similar presumably lie.

2.) What about lying in the service of a perceived greater good? Such as people lying in the context of hiding Jews from the Nazis?

3.) What about self-defense from a serious threat? I'm loathe to bring the Bible into this, because clearly God is no fan of lying, but David feigning madness to Achish king of Gath (1 Samuel 21:10-15) may be an example. For a Christian perspective on the thorny topic of 'the ethics of lying,' here's a page - Considering David's Deceit -- The Ethics of Lying. From that article:

"Part of it depends on how you define lying. Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary defines "lie" as "to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive." Baker's Dictionary of Christian Ethics is more nuanced. It defines lying as

"the intention to deceive when we are bound to speak or do the truth."[340]

This second definition makes a distinction related to the circumstances of the lie -- "when we are bound to speak or do the truth.""

It's often thought the dive operator demands the form because they're required to, and if the diver is not in bad condition, then either a doctor's signed off form or an all-no's-checked from is fine. They know the latter are often false. Is anyone being deceived? The diver isn't trying to fool people, just give them plausible deniability to let him dive. This raises the question 'Is it functionally lying (e.g.: practicing deceit)?' Maybe so.

Some of you may be ticked that I'd allude to a desire for a fun dive to be on par on with sheltering Jews from death camps or busting heroin distribution rings. No. I'm citing extreme examples to establish the point that maybe sometimes lying is justified.

I'm not saying it is or isn't, just posing the question, because you answer for yourself, as we all do. I'll proceed on the assumption answered 'yes.' When weighing competing interests as we have here, between the insurance companies and dive operators on one side and divers on the other, if the diver is to be vindicated somehow, we must then look at his/her motives/issues. What 'good' is being served?

Is confidentiality of personal health information considered an individual right, and protected under various laws or regulations? Yeah. Even before HIPAA.

I extrapolate from that a right to keep your info. hidden. That right has limits, but what are they? Dive op.s and insurance companies have the right to ask for voluntary disclosure of that info.

But what happens when every op. offering a given service in an industry demands the same disclosure as a condition of service? It's not like if McDonalds starts demanding physician clearance for Big Macs and you switch to Burger King and start eating Whoppers. You check off those boxes or you are shut out of that service industry.

Some will say you should see the care giver (I've covered how that's costly) and get the clearance, just as a matter of honesty. That's one argument I can't clearly refute. Many divers who check all no's falsely have minor issues and could get the forms done, but that's doing nothing for diver safety in many cases, just checking a bureaucratic box and creating potential liability on the caregiver. The difference to the dive op. vs. a false 'all no's' form isn't clear; if anything, in the aftermath of a death, might the plaintiff claim you knew though cleared he had issues so you should've been watching him closer, or refused to let him dive anyway, or required a more elaborate waiver for informed consent?

The assumption the form serves the dive op. better than the all no's form does isn't compelling to me.

Does the aggregate good of individual autonomy, liberty and confidentiality justify filling in all no's on a clearance form to spare yourself the bother/time/expense (maybe every year) of getting a care giver unfamiliar with diving to check off you can go...rise to the level of justifying that act?

Everyone answers for him/herself.

There is a separate issue that falls under this, judged on a more case-by-case basis. While most people technically required to get the clearance could, some could not (at least with their first provider). They fall along a continuum.

1.) Care provider is wise to the liability shifting game and unwilling to sign the clearance, even though the risk looks quite low. It's also possible the provider is one of those 'abundance of caution' types who's just very risk averse/idealistic.

2.) Diver does have issues and is probably okay to dive, there's some room for dissent, but the care giver is, again, one of those more risk avoidant types.

3.) Diver has substantial but not severe risk, and some of us in his position would have to mull over whether we would choose to dive, but would ultimately choose to do so. Business entities will be more risk averse. Here, if the diver discloses his condition, he is refused service, forced to let an outside entity impose on his liberty.

4.) Diver was high risk and none of us would want him on our dive boat. We'd hope he'd choose not to dive.
 
Oh, here's an interesting hypothetical (that some people may do), from a moral/ethical stand point. Let's say a diver is, oh, 47 years old and has a remote history of high cholesterol, for which he's been on a statin for several years, control is good, routine lab work monitoring health and treatment are fine, he sees his family physician twice per year.

In preparation for a dive trip, he runs across the medical form requirement, and next time he goes in, tells his doc. about it. His doc. knows practically nothing about diving and isn't going to take the time to read that form in detail (any of you who've done busy clinical work aren't likely surprised by that). He gives the doc. a quick run down that it's not very strenuous, he's been diving a few years and no problems. Doc. does the form.

Next year, our diver books another dive trip, elsewhere. There have been no changes in his status, except he's now 48 years old. He's not due to see his family doc. again till after the trip. He can jump through the hoops required by bureaucracy...or check all no's. It's not about health risk management, it's about bureaucratic compliance.

I imagine there are a number of divers like this guy.
 
an all-no's-checked from is fine
You probably should not keep saying this, since it relevant to the OLD form and not the NEW form.

On the NEW, current form, some Yes's are perfectly fine and do not require a doctor's signature. There are 10 screening questions on Page One; 7 of them can be answered Yes and not force the need for a signature. The Page Two questions (which you go to if you say Yes to one of those 7 screening questions) DO require a signature if you answer Yes to them.
For example, I'm over 45, so must answer Yes to question 2 on Page One. (and my age can easily be checked by the dive operator on my cert card), go to Box B on Page Two. 4 questions, two of which I can asnwer No to, but two I have to say Yes to. I win; I get to have a doctor sign my form.
 
Like many people and likely most people, I did not start annual physicals until I was 50. Many insurance plans will not cover routine physicals for younger people.

Really? I'm nothing near 50 and I've had an annual physical for ages. Blood pressure, weight, those sorts of basics, skin cancer screening if you want one, general discussion if you have any other concerns, done.
 

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