Medical form for dive op?

[tursiops]

5.) If I drown on a dive, I'm dead. If I pass out driving, my 55 - 70 mph couple-of-ton metal/rubber/plastic mass may hurtle into another car and take out a whole family.

Or: If I pass out driving, my 55 - 70 mph couple-of-ton metal/rubber/plastic mass may hurtle into another car and take out a whole family. But if I drown on a dive, I may ruin the careers of the DM and the boat captain, and certainly traumatize my dive buddy and the entire boat full of people.

 

[drrich2]

Unfortunate dichotomy, with a clear bias involved. One could also call it, "Rule-following vs. sociopathic," or "Information-based vs. ignoring-the information based."

Bias (and distortion) in the other direction. Many people who check all 'no' answers are aware of the issues, not in denial. They know their medical history, they're aware of the option to have a caregiver check off a form to meet a bureaucratic requirement for outside entity's liability management needs, etc...

In other words, they don't ignore the information, they draw a different conclusion from it. I don't dispute some people are in denial, but not all.

As for bias, I don't assume a bureaucratic requirement is good/bad or right/wrong on that basis alone. When I encounter something like this, I look at the reasoning behind it. What I was getting at is that people vary in their sense of duty to obey social authority for its own sake, when it runs afoul of their own assessment.

We all obey lots of rules - what side of the road to drive on, etc... That's just part of life. As the perceived burdensomeness/unreasonableness mounts, people vary in where they start considering alternatives.

 

[drrich2]

But if I drown on a dive, I may ruin the careers of the DM and the boat captain, and certainly traumatize my dive buddy and the entire boat full of people.

True, but I think the reasonably likely impact of the traffic accident is greater. I'm not disputing there are broader effects beyond the individual diver's death.

 

[tursiops]

Bias (and distortion) in the other direction. Many people who check all 'no' answers are aware of the issues, not in denial. They know their medical history, they're aware of the option to have a caregiver check off a form to meet a bureaucratic requirement for outside entity's liability management needs, etc...

In other words, they don't ignore the information, they draw a different conclusion from it. I don't dispute some people are in denial, but not all.

As for bias, I don't assume a bureaucratic requirement is good/bad or right/wrong on that basis alone. When I encounter something like this, I look at the reasoning behind it. What I was getting at is that people vary in their sense of duty to obey social authority for its own sake, when it runs afoul of their own assessment.

We all obey lots of rules - what side of the road to drive on, etc... That's just part of life. As the perceived burdensomeness/unreasonableness mounts, people vary in where they start considering alternatives.

What's bothersome is the presumption that whatever happens to the diver is personal, that it has no ramifications other than his own death. So he can make his own decision because it affects no one else. But it does, greatly. Even a case of DCS on a dive boat affects everyone; a death is worse. The statement that "it's my decision how to live my life" borders on sociopathy. Look around on your usual dive boat; it is FULL of people on the edge of serious medical issues. Look at them breathing hard after coming up the ladder. They are either in denial or are clueless. The medical form might help those who are clueless.

 

[Lorenzoid]

4.) Even putting aside the drunken driving issue that's so despised, how many of us have ever driven when we were sleepy and really shouldn't have?

That's my point. I suspect that a HUGE number of people drive while sleepy and "shouldn't," but there are surprisingly few accidents as a result. I mean, my speculation is that there are lots of accidents involving sleepy drivers, but lots and lots of sleepy drivers. We have developed the ability to judge the risk. (And thank you for putting the alcohol issue aside.)

5.) If I drown on a dive, I'm dead. If I pass out driving, my 55 - 70 mph couple-of-ton metal/rubber/plastic mass may hurtle into another car and take out a whole family.

I would be interested in knowing how frequently a driver just passes out without much warning. Is it exceedingly rare? If passing out without warning happens more frequently than most of us realize, then I agree that would make our risk judgment in driving more like it is in diving. Do divers pass out without warning? I have often wondered that--usually when I'm beginning a CO2-induced fear spiral, but that's a different thread.

 

[drrich2]

The medical form might help those who are clueless.

I don't deny that.

The statement that "it's my decision how to live my life" borders on sociopathy.

I understand your point. The issue of social reasonability vs. individual liberty has long been contentious with a lot of gray area. The problem is, since nearly all of us have some sort of ties to society, and any substantial action we take could in theory impact others, if we take the 'my rights end where your nose begins' doctrine very far, my rights end.

I'm fat. That might run up insurance company costs. What if someone wants to legislate food access and mandate I be thin? We already pay more because my wife smokes.

Sociopathy disregards the value and rights of others. I'm not talking about disregarding those; I'm saying sometimes people weigh individual vs. 'other' competing agendas and consider the individual case more compelling.

But if I drown on a dive, I may ruin the careers of the DM and the boat captain, and certainly traumatize my dive buddy and the entire boat full of people.

Since I framed the issue in terms of individual liberty vs. submission to societal dictate, and you framed it in terms of selfishness vs. social responsibility (apologies if I misrepresented your view), let me offer a hypothetical exercise to explore diver motivations.

Let's say things change and nobody requires a medical form or clearance, no matter what. On the other hand, they remain available in their current form, and all divers are made aware of them.

It would be fascinating to know what % of divers who dispute those who check all 'nos' would still go through the medical clearance form process.

I ask because at that point, it's no longer about submitting to the dictates of bureaucrats, but rather solely about the 2 factors left:

1.) Protecting yourself (if you think the process will give you useful new info. you couldn't get otherwise).

2.) Protecting that boat staff and other people from peripheral effects as you describe.

People who would get the form done anyway are acting on the motives you demonstrate concern about.

 

[Wibble]

Diving seems to be enormously training focussed, almost more than any other pass time other than aviation.

Take sailing. Buy a boat. Go sailing. No qualifications required.

Mountain biking. Buy a bike. Go mountain biking. No qualifications required.

Caving. Buy a helmet & head torch. Go caving. No qualifications required. (May need membership of a club to get access).

Diving. Buy kit. Go to endless courses. Get caught up in endless arse-covering bureaucracy.

 

[tursiops]

1.) Protecting yourself (if you think the process will give you useful new info. you couldn't get otherwise).

2.) Protecting that boat staff and other people from peripheral effects as you describe.

I'd like to think that all would be compelled by at least one of these two motives.
But clearly there are folks who disregard any into that might conflict with their believes or desires, and clearly there are folks who couldn't care less about others or at least think there will be no effect on them.

 

[Wibble]

I'd like to think that all would be compelled by at least one of these two motives.
But clearly there are folks who disregard any into that might conflict with their believes or desires, and clearly there are folks who couldn't care less about others or at least think there will be no effect on them.

Doesn't the diver have a say in this?

The diver should decide if he's OK. After all it's the diver's life at stake and in his interest to ensure he's up to the dive, the kit's working, he has the skills and knowledge to do the dive, he's feeling OK.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Diving seems to be enormously training focussed, almost more than any other pass time other than aviation.

Take sailing. Buy a boat. Go sailing. No qualifications required.

Mountain biking. Buy a bike. Go mountain biking. No qualifications required.

Caving. Buy a helmet & head torch. Go caving. No qualifications required. (May need membership of a club to get access).

Diving. Buy kit. Go to endless courses. Get caught up in endless arse-covering bureaucracy.

How many of those are individual endeavors? You want to solo dive from shore, with tanks you filled from your own compressor? You could do it without being required to take a course.