Measuring success---or "How far in did you go"?

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

When I am at some of the local fill stations here in North Florida I often hear one cave diver ask another "How far in did you make it? I do not recall a cave diver asking another "Did you mark the cave up with fins, tanks or your hands on your last cave dive?"

The latter question is the one I ask.

How far one penetrates the cave is no measure of success, how well the dive went and how good was your technique is a measure of success!!

Goal oriented cave diving....i.e. How far in can we make it is not conducive to safety or conservation. When I hear cave divers set a goal to make it to point X in the cave I envision them being hell-bent to get there.

Making fin marks, leaving hand prints or scooter marks on the way because the GOAL is to get to point X, rather than the goal to execute a cave dive with good technique.

My encouragement is to ask the right questions of fellow cave divers, stop worrying about who has gone further, jumped higher, ran faster. Cave diving should NOT be a competitive activity.

 

[BabyDuck]

agreed, jim. see you next week?

 

[TSandM]

Well said!

I've gone in on more than one cave dive and said beforehand, "My goal for this dive is not to touch ANYTHING!"

 

[The Chairman]

"Did you mark the cave up with fins, tanks or your hands on your last cave dive?"

Unfortunately, many people scuba in complete denial to the impact they are having on their environment. They often never realize that they are leaving their mark for posterity in a rather negative manner. You might as well ask a lamp post that question and don't be surprised if you are met with the same ambivalence from divers who might resent the inference.

Rather than focus on a lack of negatives to define a successful dive, I always ask: "Did you have fun and stay safe?" I might also ask what they saw or were there any difficulties. Rather than trying to pass judgement from afar and alienate people (with no benefit), I would rather stay approachable and be able to point out poor diving practices if/when I see them. This is true for both overhead and OW divers world wide.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

.

Rather than focus on a lack of negatives to define a successful dive, I always ask: "Did you have fun and stay safe?"

An answer to your question may be "Yes I had fun, and stayed safe!"

Did I cause cave damage? Did I use good technique? I don't know I was too busy having fun to notice......

Reminds me of the attitude no one fails because that is not a nice thing.....

 

[The Chairman]

Did I cause cave damage? Did I use good technique? I don't know I was too busy having fun to notice......

That's kinda the point Jim. You're asking the wrong peeps if they used good technique. But then, some people like to be inflammatory in their comments to others. I don't. I don't assume that everyone is a worse diver than I am. I definitely look to others for input about how I dive. We are the absolutely WORST person to ask about our own diving skills. Ego and denial go hand in hand to elevate us in our own eyes while causing us to believe that no one else is quite as good as we are.

Reminds me of the attitude no one fails because that is not a nice thing.....

I don't have that attitude, but I also don't have the attitude that if you don't dive like me, you will surely die/destroy the cave/are a stroke! Both are equally fallacious and both cast aspersions on the other's character.

But hey, if the overtly confrontational method works for you: swell. I use a more targeted approach to affecting others for the better.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

Sorry I started the thread. Feel free to delete it.

 

[The Chairman]

Why? I think it's a great discussion.

 

[tgsmith]

I agree, asking, "Did you mark the cave up with fins, tanks or your hands on your last cave dive?" is pretty rude.

When a good friend says they went to dinner last night with their wife, do you ask them, "Did you drop food all over the place, slurp and pay a low tip?"

Being overtly confrontational for no good reason is completely different from being sheepish and having no personal fortitude to tell someone they're wrong.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

I too think its a great topic. Having a penetration point is not bad in my opinion as long as you properly plan on it and the purpose is to look and admire that section of the cave. However I would hope the divers would have the skill not to mar up the cave but we know it happens too often. I have a problem with the cave damage in general. From what I have witnessed the ones that do it are trying to do too much tooo fast. You dont need to stage dive or touch a scooter the week after Full cave. And perhaps some divers have a buddy who will not actually tell them HEY YOU NEED TO PRACTICE!! But thats just my opinion.