Master.........Really?

[happy58900]

coolhandcarter:

Since the DM is in such a responsible position, I wonder if it would be beneficial to the diving community if DM were ranked by experience?

As an example, those with less than 300 dives as a divemaster: DM-I. Those less than 500 dives as a divemaster: DM-II. Those over 500 dives as a divemaster: DM-III. At least that would communicate the experience level of the person leading your dive.

As for an instructor, I would suggest one would need DM II status as a prerequisite.

I agree I am a Master diver because I do not want to teach, diving is a hobby to me not my job ! More times than not the DM gods on the boats i dive on are lucky to have anof dives up to get thru there DM coarse.

 

[Crowley]

I think ranking DMs and instructors according to dive experience would be hmm - if not detrimental to the industry as a whole, it would make it very difficult for new DMs and instructors to find work and get the experience they require.

If you ranked your DMs or instructors, then most people will want the level 3 DM, which means the level 1 DM is out of work. The training should be sufficient, but I also have my eyes open to the fact that some DMs and instructors are insufficiently trained.

I think there is a certain amount of "trust me, I'm a professional" - but there comes a point where divers have to make that decision and perhaps the fact that a particular DM is employed by a particular dive centre and is trusted by the people with the money to perform to expectations suggests that even if the DM is inexperienced, they are capable of leading a dive.

The topic can be debated endlessly without resolution - I've seen DM trainees with 30 dives who I would trust over an MSDT certified instructor, because although they do not have the experience, they have the right presence of mind to deal with novel problems.

I think it gives a false representation of the ability of the DM or Instructor - just like any title. Is a Master Instructor with the bare minimum requirements any more qualified to lead dives than an Open Water certified diver with 30 years experience and 2,000 dives? Probably not, actually.

We all have to start somewhere.

C.

 

[nocodiver]

I may end up hating myself for bringing the following up at all, but just can't stop myself..... I see a LOT of people posting who have also posted their "rank". Their qualifications. One contributor really caught my eye, a divemaster candidate, who said he's more likely to respect a DM designation than a MSD designation. Can you respect the person who HAS the designation though? Seems that's what it's really all about. We all know paper instructors. Do we worship the paper? Or do we, in some lucid state, on a case-by-case basis, determine if someone is an individual we want to dive with at all. We CAN'T fix an entire industry, folks... only that small part of it that we personally interact with, such as our students and customers. So, the operative question is this..... all of you folks who are very highly trained and qualified... would you actually divemaster for someone whom you technically outrank in the name of providing good customer service to the people who matter most in our industry, namely the consumers of our services? Or would you get so hung up on your own rank that you would never stoop to such a thing? I have some guesses as to what the answers would be...... "I have x or y rank, and therefore I should be performing x or y duties".
Me? Actually remaining humble enough to take a supporting role when you have the certifications to not do that would seem refreshing in the face of all of the c-card waving, and can be very educational for all those involved. You should see the looks on people's faces when they get told that someone is simply there with their interests in mind. Food for thought. Don't gang up on me for this, but I do think it needed to be brought up for consideration. As to the DM candidate who wanted to set an example to people who have 10 times his experience, good luck with that. If you'd ask them what they expect from you, you might find it's pretty simple. They expect you to know the waters you're diving in, and get them all back on the boat, and not be a pain in the tuckus to them while on the boat. It's not that tough..... If you're a master instructor, would you divemaster for someone for the greater good?

 

[Hank49]

I have limited work experience as an instructor. I did the course and after a year had to get a higher paying job again in my other profession to pay for college tuitions for my kids.
But in the shop where I worked on Boracay, Philippines, we had to DM or we wouldn't make any money. There just weren't that many people doing courses.
As long as I was in the water, I didn't care what I was doing.

 

[Scoober]

While PADI deserves alot of credit for alot of things, this gets to the nut of what makes PADI embarassing. When I was teaching and guiding in the field, I always looked to the number of dives, rather than the cert level, when starting diver evaluations. Hell, I once guided an Open Water Diver with literally thousands of dives in various enviroments! Still had the old card, issues in the early 80s, and was damned proud that he hadn't bought into the sales machine. I love continuing ed, but c'mon. It can get a bit silly! I once watched a Master Scuba Diver Trainer with just over 100 dives who attached the regulator to the tank valve BEFORE putting the BCD on the tank, and then did the "I meant to do that" bit...AFTER trying to force the tank into the BCD tank band bottom first...Oi...

 

[eponym]

I may end up hating myself for bringing the following up at all, but just can't stop myself. [snip] All of you folks who are very highly trained and qualified: would you actually divemaster for someone whom you technically outrank in the name of providing good customer service to the people who matter most in our industry, namely the consumers? [snip] If you're a master instructor, would you divemaster for someone for the greater good?

Yes (not that I consider myself highly trained and qualified compared to many). This month I served as assistant to another instructor for his OWD course. I also worked some Try Scubas including a kid's scuba birthday party. My highest rating is SSI DCSI, Dive Control Specialist (aka assistant instructor) Instructor. But if that were all I did I'd have very little to do around here. We pitch in where we can to keep the operation afloat.

-Bryan

 

[Krazytomdiver]

Call me "master dive guide" or "dive guide master" But if you are on my boat, I perfer "Master of the Universe". HA!

"living life without a hard bottom"
KT

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I once watched a Master Scuba Diver Trainer with just over 100 dives

I'd be interested in hearing others estimates on the minimum required number of dives one could "ethically" become MSDT?

What are the minimum training dives necessary to become an OWSI?

Can your AOW Navigation training dive be counted as one of your navigation dives towards your Navigation Specialty Instructor rating? Same question for the other 4 AOW training dives; do they count towards the required dives for Specialty Instructor ratings?

Can any of the training dives for; OW, AOW, Rescue, DM, Specialties &/or IDC be counted towards required dives for Specialty Instructor rating?

When taking a CD taught Specialty Instructor Course, can the training dive with the CD be applied towards the required dives for the Specialty Instructor rating?

Standards are minimum 100 logged dives to participate in the IE, 25 Certs for MSDT means a minimum of 4 dives (8-1 ratio, last dive only); but really, by Standards, an MSDT with just over 100 dives???

 

[treidm]

I hold the same bias. Master? What? I have held a union jouneyman's card in the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers for 47 years now, have worked in seven different countries, ran some pretty impressive jobs with hundreds of journeymen on my crews only to be titled superintendent for those particular jobs. No master here though. I have run across several travelers whose union card was stamped "master electrician" by their business manager or someone in their local's office. Nothing spectacular about their abilities as far as I was concerned. I guess that they have this designation in their particular locality. If I remember correctly they all came from somewhere in West Virginia. Master Diver is probably a way for a certification agency to pick up some cash just like AOW, which is a big laffer as far as I am concerned.

Off the top of my head (Should get out my directory but This should be all Classifications)
alarm and signal
atomic research service
bridge operators
cable splicers
cable TV
communications
cranemen
electrical equipment service
electrical inspection
electrical manufacturing
electric signs
electronic tech
fixture manufacturer
government
inside wireman (this is a "Journeyman")
instrument tech
line clear tree trimming
maintenance
maintenance and operation
manufacturing office workers
marine
motion picture studios
nuclear service tech
outside wireman (lineman)
powerhouse
professional, engineers and techs
professional, tech and clerical
railroad
radio-tv broadcasting
radio-tv manufacturing
radio-tv service
service operation
shopmen
sign erector
sound and public access
sound tech
telephone
utility
utility office workers
warehouse and supply

There is NO Master classification in the I.B.E.W
Master licenses are done state by state as are Journeyman Electrician Licenses and Contractor licenses.
In Union for Inside Wireman ticket it requires 5 yrs of schooling (4 yrs When I went through) and 8000 hrs on job training, sometimes a local will require to have you take a state exam also, before turning out and getting your ticket. During training you are an apprentice of differing levels.

The Master in most states requires your transcripts from apprenticeship training or in the case of non-union, documented training and work as Journeyman for a specified time in hours (8,000-10,000 hrs is common)
The test is much different than a Journeyman test. It includes deeper theory understanding and business aspects not covered in Journeyman test.
Usually that means for a Union man 8-10 yrs in trade before eligible to try for Master License.

Foreman & General Foreman are a Wireman (But considered an agent of the company)
Stewards are also a Wireman (Represent workers, an arm of the local)
Supervisors are usually not ticket holders at all

If a yellow ticket has other than standard classifications stamped on it, no one could travel with it. It wouldn't be accepted.

Locals 141, 317, 466 & 596 do NOT have this, per Brothers out of these locals. That leaves only 968 but I don't see why this would be as it would not follow category one language requirements.

What local are you out of ?
Card # ? (In essence below, I just dragged my ticket on you)
And what countries?
Were you working Union during this period?

....T. Reid Marcum
I.B.E.W. LU # 1925
Card # D609939 (Inside Journeyman Wireman, Working on Nuclear Tech)
Master License # ME23914
Journeyman License # MARCUTR922K2
Worked in 23 states including Hawaii
Nuclear Plants to commercial work, but 80% Industrial

Going out of town to work the STP Nuclear Plant in Texas and may be out of whack for a few months, but will check when I can for your response...

 

[Mayor]

Forget all the labels and pile of cards one might have. Get in the water and it becomes clear who put the time in and who did not. Let's dive.......