Mass Rules... Help!

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Bullswan

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Messages
105
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4
Location
New Hampshire
# of dives
50 - 99
Hi fellas,

I have been reading and re-reading the Dept of Marine Fisheries website rules for a Resident/Non Resident Lobster license for a week now. I have also called Boston and spoke with a nice young lady who finally said, "You've been very nice. Most people yell at me and slam the phone down. Would you like to speak to my supervisor?". So I did. He was also nice. He tried but finally he said, "You should talk with the Officer on site before going in to see what he wants you to do."

This is crazy. The rules are so illogical and contradictory that they are letting the on-site officer interpret the rules however they choose?


Here is my situation and tell me what you think I should do. I live 1/2 the year in NH. (Drivers license is NH). My mother lives with us 1/2 the year (also in NH) but we all go down the Cape in the Spring, Summer, Fall to stay (her for the summer, us off and on all three seasons...... usually spend 3-4 nights per week down there). My mother OWNS the real estate down on the Cape and is a Massachusetts resident (Drives on a Mass license etc etc).

The licensing paperwork says,
" A Non-Commercial Lobster permit is required to fish for or take lobsters and crabs for personal use. This authorizes the holder and members of the holders' immediate family, residing in the same residence, to fish for and take lobsters using 10-pots only. The immediate family is defined as the spouse, parents, children, grandparents, brothers and sisters of the holder. This permit may be endorsed for diving by the permit holder only. Other family members may purchase additional permits for diving only. Non-residents may obtain this permit if they own at least $5,000 in Massachusetts real-estate, and temporarily reside in a Massachusetts coastal city or town."

Would you think if my mother (83 years old by the way) applies for the Resident license and endorses it ONLY for diving, my 15 year old son and I could dive as immediate family members on that license and catch lobsters just for our family?

If I am missing any information for you to make an opinion, let me know and I'll tell you more but I think I have all the facts down. I just want to do this right but I can't seem to get anyone to interpret the law for me.

HELP!
Thanks
 
That does sound like a poorly written law but it is not unusual for an officer to have to 'interpret' or apply a subjective standard to a few laws (although this should be the exception). Ultimately it would be the judge who has the final/valid interpretation but that might come too late to be of any real use.

IANAL but it sounds like you are 'visiting' and not 'residing' at your mom's Mass residence to me. Are you paying part of the bills there? Do you have a job while at your mom's house? In which state do you have a legal right to cast a vote? Do you pay taxes in Mass(if they have taxes there)? These are the types of questions the judge might ask to determine if you are a visitor or resident.

Why don't you just go ask the officer on site?

I think you are a visitor-but if you aren't, can you sell me some lobster?
 
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Would you think if my mother (83 years old by the way) applies for the Resident license and endorses it ONLY for diving, my 15 year old son and I could dive as immediate family members on that license and catch lobsters just for our family?

No, I don't think so. Your mother is a MA resident who owns >$5000 in real estate in the Commonwealth, so she whould be eligable for a resident recreational lobster permit. Unfortunately, I think the law is pretty clear in stating that only the permit holder can use the permit with a diving endorsement. If you wanted to set up to 10 pots, you could do that as a member of her immediate family, but if you want to dive for lobsters, you need your own permit, and they DO expect one per diver.

You might find a loophole that would let you obtain a personal lobster diving permit in the "Other family members may purchase additional permits for diving only." language, but granting you one on those grounds would be up to the interpretation of the licensing authority, not the enforcing officer. As far as the officer is concerned, you're almost certainly going to need your own permit... "My mom has one" isn't going to cut it.
 
No, I don't think so. Your mother is a MA resident who owns >$5000 in real estate in the Commonwealth, so she whould be eligable for a resident recreational lobster permit. Unfortunately, I think the law is pretty clear in stating that only the permit holder can use the permit with a diving endorsement. If you wanted to set up to 10 pots, you could do that as a member of her immediate family, but if you want to dive for lobsters, you need your own permit, and they DO expect one per diver.

You might find a loophole that would let you obtain a personal lobster diving permit in the "Other family members may purchase additional permits for diving only." language, but granting you one on those grounds would be up to the interpretation of the licensing authority, not the enforcing officer. As far as the officer is concerned, you're almost certainly going to need your own permit... "My mom has one" isn't going to cut it.

This permit may be endorsed for diving by the permit holder only. Other family members may purchase additional permits for diving only.

I agree with this. You don't want to mess with the EPA officers, they will confiscate ALL your scuba gear and slap you with a big fine if you break the rules. Think of the licenses as insurance for your dive gear. If you try to beat the system here, it might work for a while but eventually you'll run into an EPA officer and you will be very unhappy with the outcome.
If you are thinking you won't be able to get a license at all (and therefore not dive for lobster) because you are not a resident, remember the EPA want to see your license, they aren't going to be examining your property holdings on the beach. Just pay the 50$ and I know you won't have any problems. The agency needs funding anyway to protect the lobsters from overfishing.
 
Thanks guys for responding......

I DO pay all the bills for this house. Real Estate Taxes etc etc. The house itself is still in moms name. Might have to change that. I also DO have business down in that part of the world. Clients I visit year round and I generally stay at the house when I do these visits.

I find the part about it being "okay" to use the Household license to harvest lobsters with 10 pots BUT NOT BY DIVING to be the odd part. Matt, you are probably correct that it won't be acceptable but I don't see any choice but to have at least $ 5000 worth of this property signed over to me to make this license possible.

Seems very strange. It's a little like having my mother qualify for a Town Recycling Center permit but not allowing me to drive her car (with the permit on it) to the recycling center to empty her trash. Is that a poor analogy?

Greg
 
I was reading over the laws and this is what I came up with. First the bad news; The way the law is written you must ÅÐwn $5,000 or more in real-estate in order to qualify for the Non-resident permit. With the house being in your mothers name you do not own that real-estate there for don not qualify for the permit, However the way the state determines proof of ownership is by tax records. You posted that you pay the real-estate tax. Is the tax sent to you and the bill in your name or is the bill in moms name and you just pay it? If the bill is in your name you may apply for the permit and it is my interpretation that you will be granted the permit because you pay the taxes. That being said it is defiantly worth a try to apply the worst they can say is no. If they do say yes you must be aware that your permit would only be good for the months of June, July, August, and September only. You can find the complete language of the law on Mass.Gov under M.G.L. chapter 130 section 38. Any other questions on this I will be happy to take a look at the language and interpret, I have worked in Law Enforcement for 4yrs and have some understanding of the Law and how to interpret. Feel Free to PM
 
If they do say yes you must be aware that your permit would only be good for the months of June, July, August, and September only.

That may be, but unless they make the permit expire prematurely, it's unlikely any enforcement officer would have any way to know your permit shouldn't be valid for 12 months.
 
I find the part about it being "okay" to use the Household license to harvest lobsters with 10 pots BUT NOT BY DIVING to be the odd part. Matt, you are probably correct that it won't be acceptable but I don't see any choice but to have at least $ 5000 worth of this property signed over to me to make this license possible.



Greg

The "other family members" on the pots, but not for diving means that the liscence holder can have 10 pots and can send members of his family to tend those pots, it does not mean that another family member can have their own 10 pots (unless they have their own liscence). 10 pots will only catch so many lobsters regardless of who is tending them. Two divers will, in most cases, catch more lobsters than one.
 
10 pots will only catch so many lobsters regardless of who is tending them. Two divers will, in most cases, catch more lobsters than one.

Well observed, sir.

Seems very strange. It's a little like having my mother qualify for a Town Recycling Center permit but not allowing me to drive her car (with the permit on it) to the recycling center to empty her trash.
It's more like letting any family member drive the car with the permit to the recycling center, but that permit does not let every family member drive their own car to the recycling center at the same time.
 

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