Mass confusion about computers????

[Eric Sedletzky]

These two posts pretty much sum up the potential direction of the average rec diver- add to that the AI technology and all its ease of computer assisted diving its a classic case of where our society is heading - more and more reliant on technology to make decisions for us- having said that I embrace new technology as a great tool to make life easier -the next step is a SIRI type dive buddy to tell you when to ascend and calculates your RMV and gas management in real time "Hello diver you can stay at this depth for only 4 minutes "
"hello diver you are a approaching 21m do you wish to do a gas switch here?" "hello diver you have now exceeded your allowable depth and i must now auto inflate your BCD"

Lol! Wow,
A smart BC that has a built in dive computer that will not allow you to get into trouble. It auto inflates at the end of your allowable bottom time to get you to start going up then controls the ascent and stops for you. All manual controls shut off so you can’t override it.
Where’s my knife!

 

[Hoag]

Lol! Wow,
A smart BC that has a built in dive computer that will not allow you to get into trouble. It auto inflates at the end of your allowable bottom time to get you to start going up then controls the ascent and stops for you. All manual controls shut off so you can’t override it.
Where’s my knife!

There is a famous quote for when computers get too smart. "Open the POD Bay doors HAL."

 

[dmaziuk]

I think they have to design their algorithms based on the lowest common denominator.

Puck manual, tech specs, under "algorithm"

• Reduction of permissible gradient
(M factors) in case of repetitive dives,
deeper-than-previous dives or dives on
multiple consecutive days.

HTH

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

Based on the last sentence, why do you feel like we "should" train (new, presumably) divers in the first 2 steps you outlined?

Personally, I think leaving tables and all but the briefest discussion of algorithms out of OW training is perfectly fine. I think people should just be taught some basic concept of how much more there is to learn and then leave it for them to either seek continuing education or do their own research.

To me, if they say "I bought my first computer having no idea that there were different algorithms" that is not good.

If they say "I bought my first computer knowing there are different algorithms but not knowing what the differences are", that is fine. Then it's on them that they didn't take the time to learn more before they spent their money. Basically, all the recreational computers available these days are safe enough that them buying without doing that research does not represent a safety issue.

Let us apply this logic to the world outside of diving and see what happens. I have never met anyone who would say "I never learn't how to do basic arithmetic in my elementary school because I was trained on calculators from day one!" I hope I never meet someone who tells me that. This mindset doesn't fly anywhere else except the diving industry. Why is it that commercial diving schools and military divers are still studying dive tables? They have not gotten rid of it like some recreational agencies have. What kind of "progress" is this that is embraced by amateurs before it is accepted by professionals?

When an irrational idea becomes widely accepted then you can bet that it is performing a greater economic function.Unlike commercial and military training, recreational diving industry gets profits from the number of people it puts in the water. Thus, like all retail businesses, it wants to train maximum number of people in the minimum possible time. While commercial and military diving is geared towards filtering out the incapable and then training a handful of divers to the highest level, the recreational industry is geared towards achieving the exact opposite.Taking the largest number of people and training each of them to the lowest possible level so that all of them can be "certified" to legally purchase all the diving gear. This philosophy is represented in the motto "TEACHING THE WORLD HOW TO DIVE!" It is no surprise that in order to shrink the curriculum, divers are given computers from the very first day. Imagine how many years can be taken off of school education if students were not trained in basic arithmetic but were given calculators from day one? Grades 1 to grade 6 could be one single grade if everyone had calculators in elementary school. You can also imagine the chaos this would bring in the real world out there if that was to ever happen.

The question is why is diving industry prone to accepting BS that does not fly in any other context? Answer is very simple. Unlike schools, scuba education is given by the same people who are selling equipment. If schools were designed around the same business model and the retail store that sells calculators to public was also the school that taught mathematics then you can bet that calculators would be "mandatory" for kindergarten.

 

[gcarter]

These computers are the best value for the entry to mid level recreational diver (and even more but without AI):

1. i300C Dive Computer - Aqua Lung US - Recreational and Professional Scuba Diving Gear (this is a newer version of the i300. It is i300C with Bluetooth connectivity and backlighting).

2. Aladin Sport Matrix Wrist Dive Computer | SCUBAPRO

3. i100 Dive Computer - Aqua Lung US - Recreational and Professional Scuba Diving Gear (least expensive AL computer without Bluetooth or backlighting)

4. The Oceanic Veo 2 wrist: VEO 2.0

AL, Oceanic and SP all offer wrist sized dive computers for much more money not in the above list.

I would NOT consider any compute from Mares, Cressi (even if given for free) or Suunto anymore at all.

For Advanced rec./tech with AI:

1. Shearwater

2. Ratio

3. SP G2

(I have been using Ratio for myself the last few months and I love it)

I used a Veo 2.0 prior to my Petrel 2 - almost 200 dives on it with no complaints or issues. I see no practical difference with the impact of the change of algorithms on my diving with my switch (which was primarily driven by the screen - old eyes)

 

[stuartv]

@CAPTAIN SINBAD To be honest, I find little validity in your post.

One example of an industry that you asserted doesn't exist: Computer software development. There is absolutely no reason for novice programmers to learn how to program in assembly language anymore. The technology has advanced and learning the "old way" really serves no purpose. Mathematics is not a valid analogy. Even when you move onto higher math, you still use basic arithmetic, so you need to know it. That is not the case with dive tables.

Learning dive tables really serves no purpose now. People learning to dive now, the majority of whom are only ever going to engage in recreational sport diving, are served not at all by learning tables. They are never going to dive using tables. So, what's the point? The things that people talk about learning by being required to "learn tables" are things that can be learned without using tables, too.

As you know, there is not even a purpose that is instilled from technical diving. You and I both learned how to plan a deco dive using tables, but that was only for diving with Nitrox. And even then it was recognized as a purely academic exercise. We were then also taught how to plan a dive using Multi-deco and I know I would/will never actually plan a deco dive using tables.

Further, I don't even know of tables that exist for planning a trimix dive.

So, if fresh OW divers don't need tables and the most advanced tech divers don't even have tables, why bother?

Really, the proof is in the pudding. Look at all the people you see on dive boats. How many of them do you think could do their day's diving if they had to plan their series of dives strictly using tables? I think few of them could. And yet they safely and successfully dive day after day, year after year. They seem to be doing just fine diving without knowing tables. So, where is the need?

I actually think it would be safer to change training standards to forbid teaching tables (at least at the OW level). The number of people I've seen or heard talk about how to use tables that were completely wrong leads me to fear for the people who learned it years ago and then think they can use tables when their dive computer dies on them.

It seems akin to the person who buys a gun, takes it to shoot at the range one time (being the totality of their shooting experience), and then thinks that they are now fine to carry it around with them for personal protection.

Better to never have the tool than to stake your life on a tool that you have not used in years and only ever used during initial training.

 

[lermontov]

@CAPTAIN SINBAD Further, I don't even know of tables that exist for planning a trimix dive.

So, if fresh OW divers don't need tables and the most advanced tech divers don't even have tables, why bother?

Really, the proof is in the pudding. Look at all the people you see on dive boats. How many of them do you think could do their day's diving if they had to plan their series of dives strictly using tables? I think few of them could. And yet they safely and successfully dive day after day, year after year. They seem to be doing just fine diving without knowing tables. So, where is the need?

I think you've made a valid point on those two examples theres simply no way id do a 60m+ dive without DC and back up DC and 2) if im on a LOB doing repetitive dives (I might use an App but..) once again im using my Perdix every time

 

[lowviz]

...//... The number of people I've seen or heard talk about how to use tables that were completely wrong leads me to fear for the people who learned it years ago and then think they can use tables when their dive computer dies on them. ...

IMHO, tables backing up a DC in a recreational setting is pure nonsense. If your DC croaks during the dive you just come up. That happened to me exactly once. DC fine on surface and blinked out due to low battery in the usual 43 degree water. No prob, dive over. DC fine again when it warmed up.

...//... The number of people I've seen or heard talk about how to use tables that were completely wrong leads me to fear for the people who learned it years ago and then think they can use tables ...

Well, here is the problem. You deny the diver any and all 'fuzzy' understanding of tables.

I was treated to a clever dive instructor who made us calculate our SAC (RMV if you prefer) and then use tables (first dive only, no prior loading) to see how long each of us could stay at a couple of depths and make it topside with 500 psi. He suggested we use a plastic tape printer to cut a couple of these air 'tables' and put them on our slates. That exercise provided a basic understanding of NDL limited vs. gas limited using tables. It also provided a sanity check for any rec DC accidentally set to a rich nitrox mix.

 

[tridacna]

I'm a mathematician and @CAPTAIN SINBAD 's analogy is pure fiction.

I suppose people should also be taught to ride an ox-wagon before progressing to a car. Cartography 101 should be a prequisite before using a GPS and instructions on using a rotary dial phone be given before purchasing a cell phone.

 

[BoltSnap]

Wow and wow and even more wow, I don't think that the OP thought or intended for his post to go this route at all.