Mask clearing-finding out the hard way

[gcarter]

I am sure you will get there. But you never should have been given a card to begin with if you had that much of a problem with being underwater.

EDIT: assingle, why are you trying to learn to scuba dive if you are not even comfortable swimming?

EDIT@: This is the real problem. People going into a completely foreign environment thinking it is like spinner class. (although one of those would probably do the trick)

Ummmmmm.......

All due respect, but did you read what assingle wrote? About being a lifeguard? The problem is not comfort swimming.

THIS is the real problem: people giving advice without having properly understood the question / issue.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

And where is the snorkel in the "hood over mask" scenario?

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

In the dive bag in the car :shocked2: or rolled up in a pocket where it belongs when one is under water.

 

[Guy Alcala]

Ummmmmm.......

All due respect, but did you read what assingle wrote? About being a lifeguard? The problem is not comfort swimming.

THIS is the real problem: people giving advice without having properly understood the question / issue.

ISTM the question underlying his comments was "how could someone who was certified as a lifeguard not know how to keep water out of his nose?" That was my question, too. If you're a competent swimmer who's comfortable in the water, you are comfortable both above and below the surface, no mask, no snorkel, no equipment whatsoever. Especially for someone who's a lifeguard, because there's a fair chance that a panicked swimmer will grab and tear off equipment like a mask, goggles, snorkel etc. - a lifeguard HAS to be comfortable in/under the water wearing nothing but the equipment they were born in. After all, one of the basic defensive moves if a panicked rescuee grabs you is to descend below the surface; since they want to be on the surface they'll eventually let go.

Yet, if I understand assingl's post correctly, in just this situation he would likely panic because he couldn't keep water from going up his nose?! Maybe I misunderstand vshearer's intent, but I thought that was what his comment that assingl 'should not have been given a [Lifeguard] card in the first place' referred to. If I'm not misreading these posts, I agree. If I am then apologies to all, and I look forward to clarification.

Guy

 

[gcarter]

ISTM the question underlying his comments was "how could someone who was certified as a lifeguard not know how to keep water out of his nose?" That was my question, too. If you're a competent swimmer who's comfortable in the water, you are comfortable both above and below the surface, no mask, no snorkel, no equipment whatsoever. Especially for someone who's a lifeguard, because there's a fair chance that a panicked swimmer will grab and tear off equipment like a mask, goggles, snorkel etc. - a lifeguard HAS to be comfortable in/under the water wearing nothing but the equipment they were born in. After all, one of the basic defensive moves if a panicked rescuee grabs you is to descend below the surface; since they want to be on the surface they'll eventually let go.

Yet, if I understand assingl's post correctly, in just this situation he would likely panic because he couldn't keep water from going up his nose?! Maybe I misunderstand vshearer's intent, but I thought that was what his comment that assingl 'should not have been given a [Lifeguard] card in the first place' referred to. If I'm not misreading these posts, I agree. If I am then apologies to all, and I look forward to clarification.

Guy

I can't answer for assingl, but to me comfort with swimming and comfort with diving are two completely different things. When you are swimming and holding your breath, it is not at all outside the realm of possibility to have a different reaction to water in the nose than if the same thing happens with a reg in your mouth and breathing. While breathing, while holding your breath - different reactions.

That's how I read it.

 

[Guy Alcala]

I can't answer for assingl, but to me comfort with swimming and comfort with diving are two completely different things. When you are swimming and holding your breath, it is not at all outside the realm of possibility to have a different reaction to water in the nose than if the same thing happens with a reg in your mouth and breathing. While breathing, while holding your breath - different reactions.

That's how I read it.

Ah, I see, that makes a little more sense. Can't say that I ever noticed any difference, but maybe that's just me. Or maybe it was the progression I did, from swimming underwater with no gear for some years (lots of neat stuff at the bottom of the pool or swimming hole), to getting my first mask and snorkel (and not always having both available at the same time, so I sometimes free-dived sans mask but with snorkel), to finally getting scuba-certified 35 years or so later (just a _slight_ delay from my originally intended schedule, owing to numerous detours along the way).

I don't remember any problems making the transition from no-gear to snorkel only, but maybe it all happened so long ago that I've forgotten. It does suggest that those of us who believe a fair amount of free-diving/snorkeling training and experience should precede scuba training, are onto something. I was a fan of the YMCA's program for that reason, and why I also find SEI's approach (which was formed by ex-YMCA instructors, I believe) is what I think a proper scuba training program should be - see Jim Lapenta's post upthread. But that's another issue which has been beaten to death here, and I don't want to restart that merry-go-round.

Guy

 

[gcarter]

Ah, I see, that makes a little more sense. Can't say that I ever noticed any difference, but maybe that's just me. Or maybe it was the progression I did, from swimming underwater with no gear for some years (lots of neat stuff at the bottom of the pool or swimming hole), to getting my first mask and snorkel (and not always having both available at the same time, so I sometimes free-dived sans mask but with snorkel), to finally getting scuba-certified 35 years or so later (just a _slight_ delay from my originally intended schedule, owing to numerous detours along the way).

I don't remember any problems making the transition, but maybe it all happened so long ago that I've forgotten. It does suggest that those of us who believe a fair amount of free-diving/snorkeling training and experience should precede scuba training, are onto something. I was a fan of the YMCA's program for that reason, and why I also find SEI's approach (which was formed by ex-YMCA instructors, I believe) is what I think a proper scuba training program should be. But that's another issue which has been beaten to death here, and I don't want to restart that merry-go-round.

Guy

Interesting sidenote: I have never spent much time in the water - bad eyes, both -10 - so my swimming skills are not the best. You can't develop or hone technique if you don't actually do it. I can get from A to B, I can keep myself afloat no problem, but I centainly would not class myself as a strong swimmer.

When I did my OW, days shy of my 51st birthday, I started by buying a mask with perscription lenses. Did wonders for my comfort level.

I didn't break any speed records in the water, but I did manage the swimmimg test. Had no choice but to swim, as that was the only way I was going to get aboard the boat achored offshore LOL.

My brother, in the Navy, dragon-boater, sailing instructor, lifeguard, snorkler, spent his entire life in the water, did the cert with me. His idea, to which I first responded with laughter given my lack of comfort with not being able to see in the water. When I visited the DS with him and found out I could get a perscription mask, I was intrigued and decided to go for it.

All that is to say, he was a water baby and I was definitely not. He was a strong swimmer, me not so much.

I had less trouble with the mask skills than he did. Both confined and OW. Go figure.

BTW, I have since had laser surgery and am undertaking swimming lessons to build technique and endurance. All because I tried it and fell in love with it.

Of course, my 16 year old son who has been swimming and freediving from a very early age had no such issues. He just finished his cert several weeks ago and you would swear he has been doing it for years.

This is definitely an area where YMMV. I would suggest that for recreational diving, closing it off to people who do not already have all of that "other stuff" may prevent people like me from ever getting started (of course, some may think that is good although I obviously do not). But I feel safe in saying that having that experience before hand is no guarentee either.

 

[Guy Alcala]

Interesting sidenote: I have never spent much time in the water - bad eyes, both -10 - so my swimming skills are not the best. You can't develop or hone technique if you don't actually do it. I can get from A to B, I can keep myself afloat no problem, but I centainly would not class myself as a strong swimmer.

When I did my OW, days shy of my 51st birthday, I started by buying a mask with perscription lenses. Did wonders for my comfort level.

I didn't break any speed records in the water, but I did manage the swimmimg test. Had no choice but to swim, as that was the only way I was going to get aboard the boat achored offshore LOL.

My brother, in the Navy, dragon-boater, sailing instructor, lifeguard, snorkler, spent his entire life in the water, did the cert with me. His idea, to which I first responded with laughter given my lack of comfort with not being able to see in the water. When I visited the DS with him and found out I could get a perscription mask, I was intrigued and decided to go for it.

All that is to say, he was a water baby and I was definitely not. He was a strong swimmer, me not so much.

I had less trouble with the mask skills than he did. Both confined and OW. Go figure.

BTW, I have since had laser surgery and am undertaking swimming lessons to build technique and endurance. All because I tried it and fell in love with it.

Of course, my 16 year old son who has been swimming and freediving from a very early age had no such issues. He just finished his cert several weeks ago and you would swear he has been doing it for years.

This is definitely an area where YMMV. I would suggest that for recreational diving, closing it off to people who do not already have all of that "other stuff" may prevent people like me from ever getting started (of course, some may think that is good although I obviously do not). But I feel safe in saying that having that experience before hand is no guarentee either.

Your son's and my experience sounds similar. I was lucky enough to be taken in the water at 18 months and start swimming/freediving at 4, and I didn't become nearsighted until age 10 (about when I got my first mask), when I went to about -5 diopters pretty quickly followed by a long slow deterioration (it's about -6.75 now), so I was used to having poor vision in the water. I've always done scuba with contacts, but my only worry mask off is losing them, not breathing. Interesting to hear about your brother; I confess to being surprised. Still, I doubt anyone would argue that being a competent, comfortable swimmer before taking scuba will hold anyone back; there's so much less to learn all at once, and the panic threshold is appreciably higher. Glad you made it, though. I'm curious, do _you_ think it would have been easier if you'd taken swimming lessons before scuba lessons?

Guy

 

[gcarter]

Your son's and my experience sounds similar. I was lucky enough to be taken in the water at 18 months and start swimming/freediving at 4, and I didn't become nearsighted until age 10 (about when I got my first mask), when I went to about -5 diopters pretty quickly followed by a long slow deterioration (it's about -6.75 now), so I was used to having poor vision in the water. I've always done scuba with contacts, but my only worry mask off is losing them, not breathing. Interesting to hear about your brother; I confess to being surprised. Still, I doubt anyone would argue that being a competent, comfortable swimmer before taking scuba will hold anyone back; there's so much less to learn all at once, and the panic threshold is appreciably higher. Glad you made it, though. I'm curious, do _you_ think it would have been easier if you'd taken swimming lessons before scuba lessons?

Guy

Now there's a question. As a general statement, greater comfort and assurance in the water would certainly have lowered my anxiety levels somewhat. For me, though, the anxiety was less about swimming prowess than it was about breathing. Maybe I had an easier time than my brother with those exercises because I expected to have trouble breathing and the reality was easier (I should point out that virtually every other skill came more quickly to him, and yes, with less stress). Knowing that dumping my weight makes me a cork also lifts a lot of anxiety about tiring out. So maybe for me coming into it with better swimming skills would be less about anxiety than it would be about quicker progression and skill acquisition. Pretty much once I decided to do it - a big part of which was my trust in my brother - my anxiety focussed in on the breathing.

I would wager a goodly amount that both my brother and son progress faster than I in skill acquisition and overall comfort level. I am not likely to ever bother with dive sites that require strong swimming skills, so I will certanly miss out there. But that's OK. At age 51 I took something off my bucket list I never even knew was on there, and in the process found a new pleasure. It is all gravey from there.

 

[davetowz]

At age 51 I took something off my bucket list I never even knew was on there, and in the process found a new pleasure. It is all gravey from there.

Welcome to the world of diving!

 

[Guy Alcala]

Now there's a question. As a general statement, greater comfort and assurance in the water would certainly have lowered my anxiety levels somewhat. For me, though, the anxiety was less about swimming prowess than it was about breathing. Maybe I had an easier time than my brother with those exercises because I expected to have trouble breathing and the reality was easier (I should point out that virtually every other skill came more quickly to him, and yes, with less stress). Knowing that dumping my weight makes me a cork also lifts a lot of anxiety about tiring out. So maybe for me coming into it with better swimming skills would be less about anxiety than it would be about quicker progression and skill acquisition. Pretty much once I decided to do it - a big part of which was my trust in my brother - my anxiety focussed in on the breathing.

Interesting. For me, while I value swimming ability as a general qualification pre-scuba, pure swimming ability is less important to _learning_ scuba; it's general comfort in/under the water and breathing that I consider more important. For instance, anybody who's spent any portion of time swimming underwater already knows how to control buoyancy by varying the amount of air you hold in your lungs. Admittedly, your buoyancy control when free-diving is uni-directional (less, never more) rather than bi-directional, but it's the concept that's important.

Pure swimming ability and endurance become more important once you're out of class, and you want to cover the greatest distance with the least energy/gas, or be able to deal with rougher conditions and emergencies. And have the confidence to know that you can do so, so that you don't care whether the water depth under you is 6 feet or 600 and all your buoyancy gear has failed. The knowledge that if you have to, you can dump all your gear and swim to shore or a boat that's a long way away, is very confidence-inspiring. I don't know if you've seen this before, but there's a joke about various training agencies approach that goes like this:

Dive classes from SSI, NAUI and PADI are all on the same dive boat. Shortly after finishing their SI between dives, the captain announces that the boat is sinking. the SSI instructor tells his class to get into their gear, get in the water, form a circle holding each other and wait for rescue. The NAUI instructor tells his group to gear up, and says "we'll swim the three miles to shore." and the PADI instructor says "I have an announcement to make. There'll be a wreck dive in 5 minutes, at an additional charge of $40 per person." You can guess which group I'd be a member of.

I would wager a goodly amount that both my brother and son progress faster than I in skill acquisition and overall comfort level. I am not likely to ever bother with dive sites that require strong swimming skills, so I will certainly miss out there. But that's OK. At age 51 I took something off my bucket list I never even knew was on there, and in the process found a new pleasure. It is all gravy from there.

You may surprise yourself with what sites you'll try as your swimming and conditioning improves. But as you say, you're going to enjoy yourself regardless, and that's the whole point. Have a great time!

Guy

("There is no cure for birth and death save to enjoy the interval." George Santayana)