Maryland woman dies in Key Largo 12-30

[dvr4lyf]

It's always sad to hear that a member of our community (sport) has passed - even a new member. What makes this story especially sad is that this was a dream of hers and that her son was there by her side. Not to mention anything of the fact that it happened around a holiday time of year. My thought and prayers are extended to her family during their time of grief. These stories always remind me of all the extra things I could be doing to make my own diving a little safer. This might be the one I print out, laminate and carry with me in my dive bag.


Safe diving,
Joe

 

[mourningnancy]

As a member of Nancy Kreiter's extended family, I would like to thank those of you who offered condolences. We are all devastated by her death.

A couple of things I would like to say:

1) The newspapers were incorrect in saying that she was climbing the ladder when she collapsed. She never made it to the ladder. She was still in the water, behind her son. She was not at the surface. The divemaster was watching the divers as they came back, when he suddenly said "She's not breathing." Then he and some others, including her husband, worked to get her aboard to start life-saving measures.

2) She had a complete physical before this trip and was given the go-ahead by her physician.

3) There was an autopsy performed. There is no evidence of drowning. No evidence of heart attack/disease. No evidence of pulmonary embolism. Results: inconclusive. We don't know why she died, or how she died. All we know is that we lost one of the most vibrant, enthusiastic, positive, caring members of our family. Her husband and children are completely distraught, as are the rest of us.

What I would like to ask you, as members of the scuba community, is are these shortened certification courses safe? Could something have happened with her equipment that might have caused her death that someone who had taken the longer certification courses might have been able to recognize? As far as I know, her equipment is being examined by authorities, and I have not heard the status of that investigation.

Please take a moment to read some of the comments being left about Nancy on her college's website, A Tribute to Nancy Kreiter, Ph.D..

Thank you again for your sympathy, and for reading the above.

 

[diver 85]

I dove the Benwood three times, the last time with my son. I wonder if the surface was rough. I agree, a beginner, even if an adult, should not be diving with a newly certified 13 years old. Too many bad things can happen to any new divers, especially young ones.

I made sure I took rescue before getting my son certified, and he still dives within arms reach of me. If anything, it will teach him good buddy skills for the future.

The "back to the boat with 500 psi" rule should be changed to 1000 psi with beginners especially when we are certifying people with minimal or no swimming skills. I can envision a new diver hanging on to the trailing line, trying to remove his/her fin, then loose grip of the line in 2 to 3 foot waves. Trying to swim after the boat with 2 fins in one hand, and no fins on your feet is an ardous physical task. Now trying to do that without a reg in your mouth or with a snorkel..... Unfortunately, this skill is only learn with hard experience.... But this is the norm for diving in the keys, it seems like.

& I would have missed on many a good dives if I would not have not dove with our 1st certified kid(wife, myself & oldest child were all certified together)....It REALLY depends on the individual, some make better divers than others, mine (all 3 kids certifeird early) made great divers......Sometimes a little thinking is involved......Still sorry for the loss.........

 

[fairybasslet]

My sincere condolences to you and your family. It must be hard not knowing what contributed to her death. I don't think I am qualified to answer your question but I did know a dive master at a resort, who had thousands of dives under his belt, who died along with another guest who also had a lot of experience. Though I never learned what caused his death, it was thought to be equipment related. I think, from my brief experience, that equipment failures happen kind of suddenly and how one reacts to them at the time will have a lot to do with the outcome. How one reacts depends upon training, experience and temperment. I can't say for sure that a longer course would have made a difference if it was found to be an equipment failure.
Again, I am sorry for your loss.

 

[kwesler]

to Mourningnancy...thank you very much for sharing that information with us at what must be an extremely difficult time. There is a post on the boards by Uncle Pug which beautifully sums up WHY we want to dissect incidents...I hope you recognize that no disrespect is meant...far from it...if we learn what went wrong, Dr.Kreiter will very likely save someone's life in the future.

To your question about shortened courses...to my knowledge there are two kinds of shortened courses: a "resort" course where a non diver is given just enough information and training to make a shallow dive (theoretically) and a "VIP" course where the same material that is covered in a 6-8 week course is covered in a dramatically shorter period of time.

I am NOT an instructor, so may be out of line to comment, but my opinion as an experienced and well traveled diver is that resort courses are designed so they are only safe to the extent that the dive professional who goes along can "control" the diver (grab them if they start to shoot to the surface for example). I wish these "courses" would go away!

On the other hand, I think "VIP" courses can be just as effective as a long course, but it requires a lot of work. Think of it as learning to drive. You can learn the mechanics and rules of the road over 72 hours, or 6 weeks. It depends on the person's commitment level. If you take a VIP course and study hard, work at it, and have a good teacher who only certifies you if you are ready, and you see your certification as the beginning of the process of learning about diving (which IMHO NEVER ends) then I think they are perfectly safe. If you use it as a shortcut, and the instructor just wants to get through the skills and certifies the diver before they are ready, then it is not safe.

It is up to the instructors on the Board to comment as to whether there is or is not a problem with divers being certified prematurely (I DO have an opinion on that) and whether a VIP course contributes to that issue...


Does that offer any insight?

Regards....

 

[Teamcasa]

My condolences to you and your family during these difficult times.

Your question about the shortened courses is a difficult one. The course and the success of its students is heavily dependant on the instructor and the student's ability to adapt and learn the sport. It is in our nature to find an explanation for tragedies. Once the gear is analyzed and all of the facts are in, maybe you will have an answer. Until then, you have my heartfelt sympathies.

 

[mourningnancy]

I dove the Benwood three times, the last time with my son. I wonder if the surface was rough. I agree, a beginner, even if an adult, should not be diving with a newly certified 13 years old. Too many bad things can happen to any new divers, especially young ones.

Admittedly, I don't know anything about diving. I just want to correct another mistake made by the press. Her son is 14, turning 15 this month.\

Correction: he is 13 going on 14. Sorry, K.

 

[mourningnancy]

to Mourningnancy...thank you very much for sharing that information with us at what must be an extremely difficult time. There is a post on the boards by Uncle Pug which beautifully sums up WHY we want to dissect incidents...I hope you recognize that no disrespect is meant...far from it...if we learn what went wrong, Dr.Kreiter will very likely save someone's life in the future.

This is what we would hope, too, and I know it is what Nancy would want. Thank you for your kindness.

 

[kidsdream]

First off, until the details of the medical evaluations are known it will be hard to say what truly happened in either case.

As far a the conditions, I can give a personal update as I was out diving during both incidences (but on other nearby sites).

The conditions on the morning of the 30th were quite lumpy 3-4's with an occasional 5'/6' thrown in. The waves were quite choppy with a shorter interval that what I would call normal for this area. Of course on the Duane/Bibb (or Eagle things were more in the 3 - 6 range and closer in on the reef you were seeing 2-4'. The shallower sites had a bit of a surge, but the deeper sites were mighty nice with almost no current on the Duane the morning of the 30th. I would note, that based on the surface conditions on the Duane, I decided to leave my camera on-board (something I rarely do) as it would make working the granny line to the anchor much easier. It made the dive super easy (as I did not know what kind of current we would find) and made for a dive plan with mild penetrations more reasonable.

Not super tough conditions for the more experienced diver, but for a new diver they might feel a bit of challenge and task loading (even without a cold) getting out of the water.

 

[drbill]

MourningNancy, thank you for posting additional information on this and again, my condolences to you and others who were close to her.

I am not a dive professional nor do I directly represent any specific agency. I am just a diver with 46 years of off-and-on diving experience (very intense the last 10 years). Having begun diving without certification (which I did not receive for another 8 years), I guess I am fortunate to have survived.

When I finally was required to get certification upon moving to SoCal, I took the intensive Los Angeles County (LAC) course which took many class, pool and ocean sessions over three weeks to get an OW cert. That training was excellent, and LAC continues to offer outstanding and intensive classes, bucking the trend towards weekend miracle certifications.

It has long been my opinion that what I perceive as a watering down of OW certification programs, and the lack of required recertification thanks to most certs being lifelong, is a potential long-term safety risk. I can't speak specifically to the instruction given Dr. Kreiter. Given her academic credentials I would assume she absorbed what was given far better than the average dive class member does. Again, this is simply my personal opinion as a non-professional diver. It would probably carry little weight in court.

I used to feel that divers should wait a while before proceeding to AOW certification. I've changed my opinion on that and now recommend (when asked) that divers continue their education through rescue diver. My original LAC cert class actually covered much of what is included in OW, AOW and Rescue (albeit with less information available to disseminate back in the 60's).

Looking back I can't remember what my LAC certification cost. The school I was hired by paid for it. I would imagine an equivalent course today would run on the order of $1,000 or more. Of course that poses a financial barrier if you are trying to get more divers involved in the activity. I have criticized certain agencies in the past for trying to maximize revenue by offering a series of less-intensive courses at lower prices. However, I have softened that criticism to a degree given what a real in-depth course would cost in today's dollars.

It will be interesting to see what the inspection of her equipment yields.