Martial Arts Training?

[GearHead]

I'm glad that you started this thread, Grendel.

It reminded me to get back in touch with my Ju Jutsu club after a 2 year layoff helping my wife to raise our kids. Now that they're both into a nice routine, I can finally take some evenings away for martial arts again.

I'm looking forward to training until I puke this Sunday, and the accompanying week-long "God Help Me I Hurt All OVER!!".

Good luck with whichever discipline you choose.

Rick

 

[GearHead]

Hey O-Ring, it sounds like your focus is mainly on KM. Have you noticed any trends as far as you or others you train with getting injured because of the techniques involved? I've heard that part of the curriculum is eye-gouging, kicks to the knee-fulcrum, etc. Also, how far does your instructor go in teaching the BJJ chokes? Do people actually lose consciousness?

Just curious.

O-ring once bubbled...

...let me know as that is what I train in. Gearhead...I actually train in a joint KM/BJJ school...I really like the exposure we get to BJJ and since the instructors train in both I think it really helps since KM gets a bad rap for having a weak ground game.

 

[O-ring]

GearHead once bubbled...
Hey O-Ring, it sounds like your focus is mainly on KM. Have you noticed any trends as far as you or others you train with getting injured because of the techniques involved? I've heard that part of the curriculum is eye-gouging, kicks to the knee-fulcrum, etc. Also, how far does your instructor go in teaching the BJJ chokes? Do people actually lose consciousness?

Just curious.

I had a bruised rib for a few weeks from catching a knee while we were training lights out. To simulate the surprise of a real attack, the instructor will turn out the lights and the "victim" gets in the middle with his/her eyes closed. You can still see around the gym, but the person with his/her eyes closed can't adjust that fast. Then you take turns coming in with an attack and the victim has to defend it. Needless to say, it is much harder to react quickly and aggressively while simultaneously "pulling" your punches/kicks to not hurt your classmate. The person that caught me with the knee was a 5'3" female that probably weighs 105#. Knees and elbows are no joke..I was in pain for at least 2-3 weeks. Other than that, we have a lot of people lose contacts due to contact with the eyes, but we don't actually practice gouging, etc. full contact. Everyone gets bruised and bleeds from time to time, but from my experience that is par for the course with any serious martial arts school.

All the sparring is done with 16oz gloves, headgear, shin protection, etc. so the damage is kept to a minimum (try kicking someone's arse with 16oz gloves...hehe). I haven't been exposed to the BJJ stuff as much as some of the other students, so I will ask about that and see what they tell me. Most of the BJJ influence comes in at higher levels and I have not gotten there yet. We do train KM on the ground, but the focus is primarily on incapacitation and then returning to one's feet either to meet additional threats or flee the scene.

 

[GearHead]

Great information, thanks. During my first few months in my Ju Jutsu club, my instructor decided to use me as his practice dummy on a particular choke hold (with my permission). He warned me that I would be close to "lights out" but he wouldn't actually put me out. Anyway, the point of the exercise was to show the rest of the class how quickly someone can lose consciousness when the hold is applied correctly.

He had me tap out once my tunnel-vision dwindled to "tube vision" (like looking down a paper towel roll tube), which took all of 2-3 seconds. The common misconception is that choke-holds constrict so that the flow of air is cut off, when in actuality it's about cutting off blood flow to the brain. And this guy can apply Carotid Artery chokes using all of his limbs (and sometimes the victim's own) in literally dozens of positions. It's amazing how incapacitated someone can make you by doing something as simple as cutting off the supply of blood to your head. Imagine that!

Cheers,

Rick

O-ring once bubbled...

I had a bruised rib for a few weeks from catching a knee while we were training lights out. To simulate the surprise of a real attack, the instructor will turn out the lights and the "victim" gets in the middle with his/her eyes closed. You can still see around the gym, but the person with his/her eyes closed can't adjust that fast. Then you take turns coming in with an attack and the victim has to defend it. Needless to say, it is much harder to react quickly and aggressively while simultaneously "pulling" your punches/kicks to not hurt your classmate. The person that caught me with the knee was a 5'3" female that probably weighs 105#. Knees and elbows are no joke..I was in pain for at least 2-3 weeks. Other than that, we have a lot of people lose contacts due to contact with the eyes, but we don't actually practice gouging, etc. full contact.

All the sparring is done with 16oz gloves, headgear, shin protection, etc. so the damage is kept to a minimum (try kicking someone's arse with 16oz gloves...hehe). I haven't been exposed to the BJJ stuff as much as some of the other students, so I will ask about that and see what they tell me. Most of the BJJ influence comes in at higher levels and I have not gotten there yet. We do train KM on the ground, but the focus is primarily on incapacitation and then returning to one's feet either to meet additional threats or flee the scene.

 

[O-ring]

GearHead once bubbled...
Great information, thanks. During my first few months in my Ju Jutsu club, my instructor decided to use me as his practice dummy on a particular choke hold (with my permission). He warned me that I would be close to "lights out" but he wouldn't actually put me out. Anyway, the point of the exercise was to show the rest of the class how quickly someone can lose consciousness when the hold is applied correctly.

He had me tap out once my tunnel-vision dwindled to "tube vision" (like looking down a paper towel roll tube), which took all of 2-3 seconds. The common misconception is that choke-holds constrict so that the flow of air is cut off, when in actuality it's about cutting off blood flow to the brain. And this guy can apply Carotid Artery chokes using all of his limbs (and sometimes the victim's own) in literally dozens of positions. It's amazing how incapacitated someone can make you by doing something as simple as cutting off the supply of blood to your head. Imagine that!

Cheers,

Rick

One of my dive buddies is a black belt (first dan) in traditional ju jitsu and we were fooling around in my living room one night after coming home from the bar (bad idea). Same thing happened to me..he was like, "watch how fast this works" and I was like ok.."gakkk <arms flailing>". I was almost out too and it was like you said...tops 3-4 seconds.

 

[sillygrendel]

GearHead once bubbled...
It reminded me to get back in touch with my Ju Jutsu club after a 2 year layoff helping my wife to raise our kids. Now that they're both into a nice routine, I can finally take some evenings away for martial arts again.

Glad to be of service

What do you guys think of the class format I posted? Good, bad, ugly, pretty standard?

Matt

 

[GearHead]

On the G/B/U/P-S scale, I'd have to put that place in the Good category on first impression.

The worst dojos I've heard and read about are very cash motivated, and their focus is to train as many students as possible, encouraging new uniforms/belts/t-shirts etc. to maximize their income. The bad ones don't focus on how their style and routine fit you or your goals, and certainly not on whether you fit in with theirs. They just want to make sure that credit card runs through every month with no hassles.

The place you describe sounds nothing like that. Based on the class structure and organization, I'd bet that any motivated student could do really well for himself there. You should probably take their advice and check other clubs out, though, especially ones close to where you live as this one sounds a bit far (about an hour away, right?). You're more likely to attend more often if it's a convenient location.

And I really like the attitude of the instructor, that they want to check you out for a couple more sessions before you're invited to become a member. That's a very good sign.

Keep us updated.

sillygrendel once bubbled...


Glad to be of service

What do you guys think of the class format I posted? Good, bad, ugly, pretty standard?

Matt

 

[sillygrendel]

Its about 40 minutes away. But right now I'm 20 minutes from the nearest decent sized grocery store so... No matter where I go theres going to b e at least a bit of a drive.

Spectre & O-ring - Any comments on the class structure?

Thanks,
Matt

 

[O-ring]

I don't know anything about Budokan or whatever the discipline is, but here goes...

sillygrendel once bubbled...
I'll be glad for an comments...

I was told to just show up to the beginners group with sweatpants, socks and a t-shirt so see how things went. The beginners class is more or less run by one of the blackbelts under the supervision of the head instructor. And then he teaches the intermediate onward.

I agree that this is good...I hate places that hit you for a uniform right out of the gate.

I was told that there were normally 3 other beginners but for whatever reason they didn't show up. There were also some intermediate students assisting & practicing some more of the basics. Overall it was the head instructor, a black belt, a brown belt, a purple belt and myself.

The instructor described the discipline as really old japanese battlefield techniques. Dispatch your opponent quickly so you can turn your attention to the next one...

The basic format consisted of the blackbelt demonstrating a number of skills or drill which we would then perform and be critiqued on. The head instructor would sometimes add comments or other info.

They were -

Gymnastics type stuff:
Front roll
Back roll
cartwheel
some handspring type thing which they didn't want me to do yet.
(so I did more cartwheels)
front falling break (?)
back falling break (?)
rolling break (?)

Basic punches & kick (on dummy):
closed fist to solar plexus & neck
knuckled fist to either side of the neck or eyes
chop to either side of the neck or either temple
kick with heel to solar plexus

Everything stepping through & leverages the body.

Then one of the basic take downs. The description that was given was that someone reaches for your lapel to punch you in the face. Start square, turn to the outside while grabbing the wrist/hand. Grab with the other hand, step back and roll them down.

This is very "jiu-jitsu-ey" (is that a word?). Esp. BJJ focuses on leverage and the focusing of force...the whole discipline was founded on some scrawny Brazilians (the Gracies) taking out larger, stronger opponents. Anyway, jiu-jitsu is big on "catching" things, like catching a right hand (punch) and twisting a wrist or going into some sort of arm lock. By contrast, a KM practitioner would "invite" the punch down the middle and execute an inside defense (basically a slight redirection) while simultaneously moving (quickly and very aggressively) to strikes (fists, elbows, knees, kicks). They both work, just different approaches.

I would say this took a little more than an hour. I was told the beginner level typically lasts from 60-90 days. I was also told that I would need to show up at least 2 more times before discussing a possible membership. He said they want to check me out a bit more and also that I should go out and look at other shops and be sure this was what I wanted to do.

I stayed to watch the intermediate level class. Again, it was a small class and the blackbelt stayed to assist. He also did a bit of practice having several of the intermediate students come at him at once with 'swords'. For the most part he as assisting. They were learning the chain. They various stuff with the chain (used ropes instead). They practiced defence against two types of sword attacks with the chain.

The head instructor and the blackbelt both seemed to be in excellent shape. Their movements were smooth and precise like I would expect. The brownbelt seemed mostly on the ball but wasn't as smooth or technically correct. The purple belts ranged. Some were decent and some seemed to be floundering. I had much better active flexibility than almost all of the purple belts I noticed. But I guess after 11 years of climbing...

While doing the take downs I was working with the brownbelt and the head instructor. When told to really make an effort to grab the brownbelts lapel, I could do it before he got my hand. But I am pretty quick and have excellent reflexes.

I very much got the impression that the degree of attention you got was highly related to your dedication and desire for improvement.

As far as being sore... Not as bad as the first time I tried jumping rope, did it for 35 minutes and couldn't walk for the next 3 days but... I did have trouble walking down the stairs this morning! My upper leg, gluteal, tricepts and certain odd stomach muscles are pretty sore.

Any thoughts?

All this lapel stuff sounds Aikido-ey (is that a word?) to me. Aikido is all about that timing stuff...when attacker does X you do Y at such a time as you catch some part of his body and use his own energy/inertia to throw him or something.

Sounds pretty cool to me..you said you wanted weapons and it looks like they are incorporating soft and hard styles since you are learning a lot of soft type stuff with strikes incorporated with the weapon stuff too. I am not sure how all the weapon stuff fits (practicality) on the street, but then again you ain't exactly trying to learn how to kill someone with a sword for real, right?

In a real altercation, if you had a sword, I would execute a proper Nike defense and run like hell..

 

[sillygrendel]

O-ring once bubbled...
By contrast, a KM practitioner would "invite" the punch down the middle and execute an inside defense (basically a slight redirection) while simultaneously moving (quickly and very aggressively) to strikes (fists, elbows, knees, kicks). They both work, just different approaches.

Interesting. That is similar to what he suggested for an actual street situation. He said that the quick dodge to the side and catching of the hand was the important bit. In an actual street situation, rather than flip them on the ground you would, at the same time strike at the head with the other hand.

In a real altercation, if you had a sword, I would execute a proper Nike defense and run like hell..

LOL!! I won't blame you!