Making The Scuba Industry Better

[boulderjohn]

That's EXACTLY the solution.

Only, instead of getting "rid of" them, what we need to do is to have them become local divers in between their "dive trips to warm water destinations once or twice a year."

Convert them from "vacation divers" to "divers on vacation" and the industry will be just fine.

I did my certification dives here in cold water, in a pond that getting to 22' means digging a hole. I saw the wonderful artificial reef (discarded grocery cart) and the life underwater was breathtaking (crawdads). I would not say the local diving is what drives my desire to continue my participation. It is in fact the 2 trips per year that are far more inspiring.

I know that shopping cart well. I was there a couple of months ago. If I stayed close enough to my buddy so that we were bumping into each other occasionaly, I could still see his light and knew where he was. Although it is much more expensive and only open part of the year to diving, there is a better option available to you, one where you can get over 30 feet of depth and swim endlessly around a wrecked Cessna in 5 feet of visibility if you actually wanted to see something other than gray silt during the dive. I believe that is the best you are going to do locally, though.

Colorado has among the most divers per capita of any state in the nation, but you are not going to turn any but the most rabid of them into local divers. When I look at a map of the U.S., I see a lot of states that are probably very similar. I have also seen the efforts local shops make to turn their clients into local dives. It doesn't work. If you say you want to eliminate the vacation diver, you are eliminating about 90% of the divers in the majority of states in the nation. Do you think the local dive shops in those states will be persuaded by that argument?

I myself experienced something very similar recently in my tech instruction. I was working within an agency that has divided tech courses into about twice as many steps (individual course certifications) as almost any other agency. Between each step is a requirement for experience dives. For example, in between the completion of one of their trimix certifications and the beginning of the next class, a diver has to complete 20 trimix decompression dives between 200-250 feet in depth. Any idea how long it will take a Colorado diver, with the local options described above, to pick up that many dives? (I know a tech instructor in Florida who told me he only does about 3 dives a year in that depth range.) You can only dive to those depths on trips requiring travel, motels, and restaurants. In the entire range of their trimix dive certifications, the agency requires 95 such experience dives in addition to the dives done during the classes. Any guesses how many years any diver living in the heart of the nation will need to complete those requirements? In essence, the agency made a decision that full trimix training will only be available to independently wealthy people living near deepwater sites.

I am sure I would have been a much better diver (in theory) when I finally reached that final certification level than I am now if I had stayed with that agency, but I opted to switch to one that would allow me to complete my training within my lifetime. That training was plenty good enough for the diving I do, and I have no regrets.

I think my situation is analogous to the many thousands of people who dive safely during occasional vacations. You can set up requirements that demand that they go far beyond what is required on those occasional vacations, but don't be surprised if they go a different route.

 

[boulderjohn]

The title of the thread is making the scuba industry better, and the OP gives a suggestion. I think that suggestion has been discussed as far as it can be, and he really hasn't gotten a lot of support so far. Whether or not he is talking about dumbing down the instruction, just about everyone posting has felt it is better as it is, and they apparently feel that his suggestion will not make the industry better.

Bob's "adapt or die" comment applies to the industry as a whole. I know a lot of shops around the world have shut down recently, including two in my area in recent months. I am sure that before they closed their doors they worked very hard to adapt and were not successful. I know enough about some of the other shops in the area to know that they are doing everything they can think of to survive, and I know that some of them are barely making it.

Whenever I see these threads, I see people providing their easy-to-do solutions, implying that the industry must be controlled by idiots for not applying them. In some cases, their solutions remind me of the cure for insomnia W. C. Fields offered in one of his movies: get plenty of sleep. I have read in other places that people have offered a solution to the unemployment crisis in America: those people should go out and get jobs.

I am not offering a solution myself here. I am just saying that if you have a simple solution that seems obvious and you can't figure out why no one else sees it, it is possible that you may have missed something.

I leave you with this quote:

“When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one individual who perceives a solution and is willing to take command. Very often, that individual is crazy. ”
― Dave Barry, Dave Barry Turns 50
​

 

[Akimbo]

… People learn in different ways, women and men, and even generational. After some of these classes watching the differences really opened my eyes about different thought processes on learning…

I totally agree here and this is huge. Kindergarten through Masters Programs benefit from relatively homogenous student bodies and prerequisites. Diver training isn’t so lucky. You can have an engineering or pre-med post-grad on the water polo team and an overweight 60 year old high school dropout and hair stylist in the same class. Add mild claustrophobia and dyslexia for good measure.

The issue is making diver training affordable in currency and student time, but not necessarily elapsed time. There is great value for almost everyone to have time in between lessons to reflect and absorb, but not so much time they forget.

I think it is fair to say that establishing academic prerequisites is unworkable and testing for them would be a nightmare (for diving courses). I believe that the ultimate solution for most forms of education is well-produced, interesting, and interactive computer-based programs that can constantly present, test, and adjust to student responses — not just that wrong answers present information again but gauges the best way that individual learns and modifies presentations accordingly. Granted this is a lofty and futuristic goal. In the meantime DVD or computer presentations can present lessons in a variety of ways such as biased toward visual, verbal, and mathematically oriented learners.

We all know that great teaching is a skill and a talent. We largely depend on thousands of individuals to repeat the same lesson plans over and over; armed with little more than a white board and arm waving. Why not record the best instructors with different styles and presentations and include them in the course material? This removes most time constraints, allows students to replay and view information presented in different ways, and formulate questions for when they get instructor face time. It is about optimizing and augmenting expensive instructor time, not replacing it. We are moving in that direction… very slowly. The current programs I have seen are static, boring, and bordering on primitive.

An idea (or fantasy) has been germinating that creates a contest of sorts. Individuals from all backgrounds could submit short videos that teaches and demonstrates a particular aspect. The “winners” would be used as an inspiration for segments in an improved interactive training program. YouTube and Scubaboard are already informal banks for micro submissions. The resulting professionally produced segments could also benefit from impossibly expensive sets and props including hyperbaric chambers, animations, physical cut-a-ways, and computer graphics.

Unfortunately the fact that there are so many competing certifying agencies around the world dilutes the economic viability for the effort. Perhaps a significant part of solving the deficiencies of diver training will be solving this business problem. People who have a much greater understanding of the environment and a sense of familiarity will be less distracted during the wet phases and can concentrate more effectively on the opportunity.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Reading some of the responses got me thinking more.
If the standards were to be just improved a bit in the open water portion alone it would make a huge difference.
Like Bob said, it wouldn't necessarily have to take that much longer but if the content was improved within the same time frame it would be a vast improvement.
For instance, if the students were required to do a simple reg recovery and clear, mask off face and clear, and an air share in all four required dives, and by the end of the dives be able to hover without crashing the bottom this would be a big improvement and it wouldn't take that much extra time. Even if it did take a while longer, doing two dives in a day there would be plenty of time to really work with the students to make sure they got it and were comfortable. Also what I see missing is proper understanding of weighting and neutral buoyancy. Just doing the fin pivot doesn't mean they will be able to hover and glide horizontally staying off the bottom. Peak performance buoyancy shouldn't be a specialty it needs to be in open water because that's half the battle along with basic mask and reg skills.

I've had students tell me after a mask off skill "Boy, I hope I never have to do that again!". My answer was "you never know when it could happen underwater so you better get used to it."
If they were required to do it every dive, by the end of the open water dives it would be no big deal. Same with all the other skills.

I don't think rolling training back to the brutal days of the 1960's is the answer either.
But I think some of the points I mention are valid and perfectly adaptable to the programs already in place.

 

[boulderjohn]

If the standards were to be just improved a bit in the open water portion alone it would make a huge difference.

My thoughts are similar to yours, but I don't think a change in standards is required for what you describe. I think a different approach to those standards and a different vision of the final product is what is needed. I (and many others) feel we achieve what you describe within the scope of present standards and in roughly the same amount of time. My students can casually and comfortably remove and replace their masks on OW 4 while swimming in horizontal trim and without grazing the bottom, and I think that any instructor can do that. What it takes is getting students to perform skills in the pool in horizontal trim rather than on the knees. Students should do all the later pool skills while neutrally buoyant and off the floor. Students should never touch the bottom on an OW dive, and if they are forced to use a platform in a quarry (or something similar), they should stay horizontal and only lightly touch it to maintain position.

None of that requires a standards change. Students who emerge from a class like that with greater skill and confidence than those who did everything planted on the bottom. Are such divers more likely to continue to dive after their first vacation trip? I can't say for sure, but I would suspect they would.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Another pre scuba class that I thought about that would be fantastic especially in my area would be a basic skin diving/freediving class.
People wandering into a dive shop would have an opportunity to get wet and learn something about the ocean, and even have a chance to grab a little game if they wanted before having to take a plunge into buying scuba classes and gear.
They would get a feel for the ocean, it's movements, the wetsuit, the temperature, currents, surf zone, etc.
It would give them a chance to adapt and acclimate to the environment without all the clutter and weight associated with full scuba gear.
This is what I did, I freedove for several years in my backyard, then when I decided to get certified it was a snap because I was already comfortable and knew what to expect.
They used to teach skin diving and it was an important part of scuba training, now it's gone.
Make it an option as a pre scuba class but make it official not just something people have to figure out on their own. This would also bring in some money thet they are always crying isn't there and would be a great lead in to get people to sign up.
I would also spread out expenses for people because they would have to get at least a mask, fins, booties, weights, suit, snorkel, gloves, so by the time they get to scuba they already have that stuff and they know how to use it.

 

[endurodog]

The title of the thread is making the scuba industry better, and the OP gives a suggestion. I think that suggestion has been discussed as far as it can be, and he really hasn't gotten a lot of support so far. Whether or not he is talking about dumbing down the instruction, just about everyone posting has felt it is better as it is, and they apparently feel that his suggestion will not make the industry better.

​

John I disagree, while the title does indeed say that the OP is talking about a small item in that big picture. I and many others have seen so many threads all go the same way on SB into bashing the present standards. Some I have talked to don't come back to SB because of this tendency.

But if we are going to open it up to the increase training to make the industry better the same questions come up. If we increase the training we will increase the time it takes to get through a cert will we drive potential divers away because it takes to long before they go on their trip?

If we are to increase training just a little, how would we do that. There are many different opinions on which way to go to increase it. Gear set up, rescue skill, bouncey control, gas management. What gets included and what gets left out and how much longer does that make the class?

Then on to the big picture. What problems are we trying to correct by making the course longer? The more accident arguements, many feel there is but there is no data to support that belief. Or are we being elitist in saying those things.

What effect would this have on the industry, more divers, less divers. How that effects resorts, operators, vendors.

This is a complicated issue and the OP was trying to look at one very small aspect in his original post and thought it was good and I still see some bringing up good points in reference to the orginal question.

 

[Thalassamania]

I think that having some 'professional associations', that were actually professional associations would help in most cases.

If that were true, then debates like this would have some influence on the scuba industry, instead of just being hot air on the internet.

That would requite that diving "Pros" actually be such, that flies in the face of the industry model in terms of scarcity, respect, pay, fringe benefits, etc.

Unfortunately in the end it is about money without which an LDS cannot exist.

The only unique service that the LDS provides today is tank fills. There are other models for this that will work as well, or better. If the LDS do not think carefully about what they are and what they do they will die out. The bad economy is just accelerating that process and, I fear, not permitting the time for thought along those lines and the experimentation that may be required for people to see the best path.

... and if you could make a further sale ... whether it's training, equipment, or service ... from that "idiot" ... then what have you gained by tossing him out of your shop?

This is the mentality that's killing the LDS ... (along with their placid acceptance of MAP and other such nonsense policies from the equipment manufacturers). The Internet is a reality ... shop owners need to stop opposing it (because they can't) and figure out ways to use it to better serve their needs and their customers.

Adapt or die ... it's how business works ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Amen.

 

[dmoore19]

Those that live close to the coast or have those quarries that are within an hour or 2 find it hard to understand that vacation diving may be the best the options available.

I don't feel it necessary to have a professional with me on a dive. It would be great to have someone that is familiar with the site to go with at the first time at any site. If I remember correctly that is advised in OW training, at least it was during mine.

There are a few in my area that dive the places boulderjohn talks about. I haven't been able to get a schedule to work out for me. Living life interrupts my desire to dive more often.

My original post of get rid of the vacation divers was entirely sarcastic. Vacation divers are often used as examples of what not to do. Some of them I take seriously and review my OW training to make sure I don't make those mistakes. Others I take for what they are worth and erase them from my "things to do" list.

Someone made the statement that the vacation diver should not be blamed but the training or lack of should. While in part I agree with that there is always going to be someone who did not heed their training or was trying to score points with the person sitting next to them in class and missed that part. The in water skills should be mastered, the classroom information is all part of the training and should be reviewed the same as the in water skills. Personally the e-training is not my preference. I am old and doesn't suit my needs. The lectures and reviews in the classroom are a superior method of learning for me. Even at that, some of the people in the group I did the class and confined water training with came ill prepared. Those are the ones that probably are no longer diving in any capacity.

The places I have gone to dive generally have ops that cater to those whose skills and experience allow them to get that (sarcasm mode engaged) extra 4 hours on that AL80 (sarcasm mode disengaged). Being a mentor does not suit some people, for those please use those ops that cater to your desires. For the rest of the patient and caring folks, if you see me doing something wrong or have a suggestion PLEASE say so, I am open to suggestions for improving my skills.

I said all that to explain myself and to ask this, please don't group all vacation divers into the same group. The money I spend in the dive industry is as good as anybody's.

 

[Akimbo]

Another pre scuba class that I thought about that would be fantastic especially in my area would be a basic skin diving/freediving class...

Hear hear! Removing snorkeling and freediving from the basic Scuba curriculum was perhaps the single worst thing that has happened to Scuba education. Although the following was generated for a conversation about managing panic, it is applicable to this subject:

…My recommendation to a disciplined individual who hopes to become a great diver is:

1. Master buoyancy, not as a diver but as a swimmer: Understand that the only thing that needs to be above water during the times you are actually breathing is your mouth and maybe your nose. Any other part of the body, especially the high density skull, that is above water is a waste of energy.

2. Master swimming: You don’t have to set speed records or learn all the strokes; you are after endurance. The value here is knowing that you have plenty of time. An embarrassing number of diver drownings occur on the surface. It is incomprehensible to me how anyone can drown in a wet or drysuit at or near the surface. DUMP WEIGHT!

3. Learn basic diving physics and physiology: Pick up a book or video to learn about pressure, gas compressibility, displacement & buoyancy, and principals of oxygenation. By this time, much of it will reinforce what you have discovered in earlier steps. Don’t worry about decompression, embolism, and oxygen toxicity at this point.

4. Learn to snorkel and freedive: You can learn to snorkel from friends and gain a lot of experience. When you feel ready, pay the big bucks for a good freediving course. You will learn how to safely extend, test, and learn, your limits. Tell the instructor you want to experience hypoxic blackout under their guidance. Pool static training will give you ample opportunity. Again, the end objective is to learn you have time.

5. Buy an old used regulator and Scuba Tank: Put a paint-ball sticker on it if you have to in order to get it filled. Take the second stage apart and see how it works. Really play with it. Just don’t take it in the water yet. Try to take apart and reassemble the first stage if you are mechanically inclined.

6. Take Scuba courses through Nitrox, add rescue if you are inclined. Diving Nitrox is not the objective, gaining the in-depth understanding of diving physics, and to a lesser extent physiology is the goal. In the process, find an instructor who will guide you through free ascents starting in a swimming pool and graduating to as deep as you like. Avoid instructors who view BCs as elevators, free ascents and dangerous, and self-learning as lost income.

IMHO, this process will give most people the habituation, education, and most of the experience to make you self-reliant, confident, and capable. Individuals with the discipline and dedication to follow this path are also likely to become highly competent divers in a relatively sort number of logged dives.

This foundation will serve you well regardless of how much farther you want to go. At that point technical diving, rebreathers, or commercial diving through saturation becomes far more about mastering systems than diving.