Making The Scuba Industry Better

[boulderjohn]

It is about money ultimatetely but it does not have to give the impression that it is. My point was that if I buy a zeagle product online for 300.00 then come to your shop asking to take a class and willing to pay for the class why treat me lik a criminal because I did what every Smart human should do and make my dollar stretch. Yes I couldsee if I was bringing in the purchase and for no other reason then to point customers away from the lds or be spiteful but the problem is they see you purchase gar elsewhere they don't even want to sell service to you ad that's just plain wrong.

I see your point, but the problem from the shop point of view is that they usually see instruction as a loss leader to get you to purchase equipment. I know the shop owners in both shops where I live believe that they lose money on instruction alone.

 

[Wookie]

I see your point, but the problem from the shop point of view is that they usually see instruction as a loss leader to get you to purchase equipment. I know the shop owners in both shops where I live believe that they lose money on instruction alone.

You have hit on one of the problems with scuba. Air fills and instruction are treated as loss leaders, and profits are made on gear sales. Unfortunately, you can buy gear online where MAP/MARP don't mean much, but must get fills and instruction at the LDS. Fills cost the dive shop about $7, but are sold for $5. You hit the nail right one head.

 

[redacted]

Fills cost the dive shop about $7, but are sold for $5. You hit the nail right one head.

I can believe that, for most operations, fills are not a big profit item. But I have a hard time trying to rationalize why shops (most, some, any) would sell fills at a loss. My local shop sells at $5 while other in the area are just a bit more expensive. He claims he is not losing $$ on fills at that price.

Want to improve the scuba industry? Let nature take it natural course (or help it take that course). Replace multiple, small, inefficient LDSs with larger efficient operations or even affiliated club based operations to provide for instruction and fills.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

There is one sure way to guarantee that you will have not have the power to change things, and that is to moan about how bad things are constantly and annoyingly without taking positive steps to make them better. People just dismiss you as a crank and stop paying attention.

I have taken positive steps to do my part to change what I can in scuba. I've developed some alternative dive gear and also mentored new divers to help further their skills.Dive shops don't sell the product I make and they don't teach the way I dive, but there are people who want to use what I make and are intrigued by the way I dive so I show them how I dive and let them use the product I make.The first step is to admit there is a problem and then identify it. I think that's pretty much all this discussion is about.If you see it as annoying then don't read it. :mooner:

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Bob I would disagree with you on some points in your post about training, not all. But the point of my comments is that the OP asked a question about making the OW training 1 day instead of 2. There was no talk about dumbing it down or lessening it. Unless you consider a shorter SI lessening training. Then the conversation turned (as so often happens on SB) to many posters giving their rants on how the industry is broken and putting out horrible divers.

It was my feeling that the OP's orginal question was a good one and deserved some well thought out debate. The scuba training is horrible stuff can be handled in another thread.

Fair enough, except for the fact that trying to cram four dives into a day will produce an increasing incentive to shorten the dives, to reduce the amount of learning that goes on between dives, and will reduce ... by dive four ... the student's ability to learn and retain the dive objectives.

That IS further dumbing down of the training ... whether or not that was the intent. I'm very skeptical that you can produce the same learning experience in one day of four dives that you can in two days of two dives. Time and tired are working against you ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I've had students tell me after a mask off skill "Boy, I hope I never have to do that again!". My answer was "you never know when it could happen underwater so you better get used to it."
If they were required to do it every dive, by the end of the open water dives it would be no big deal. Same with all the other skills.

I had a student tell me that last week-end ... she hated clearing her mask. So she ended up doing it four more times today ... twice on the first dive, once on the second dive. After the second dive she asked me what I was looking for ... that she wasn't having a problem clearing her mask. I agreed ... you're not. But it's obvious that you dread doing it. I am looking for you to do it like it was no big deal.

On the last dive we were on tour. She decided not to wait for me to make the call ... she stopped, signaled her buddy, looked at me, flooded her mask, cleared it, took her reg out of her mouth and smiled at me ... all without touching the bottom. After the dive I told her OK ... she doesn't need to do it again ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Wookie]

The Navy taught me to operate nuclear reactors. Hands on training took 6 months. If you did it faster, good on ya. At 6 months, you were invited to leave the program. Some took 5 months, 29 days, and 23 hours. Some took less than that. Some scuba students could easily finish the class in a day, in a pool, and not need to go to open water, but if you shorten the class for all, than some who need the extra time get shortchanged, get scared, and get out of scuba.

 

[RonFrank]

I find it impossible to believe a fill runs the shop $7 cost. I also don't know how instruction is a loss leader at $500 per student, or around $250 to do only classroom. They generally sell most new divers some gear, likely $250 minimum. A1 seems to be doing well and I know instruction over there is not losing $$$. They used to average 1000 students a year about a decade ago. It would be interesting to know what they are doing now.

Denver is a good market and Denver supports around 10 dive shops. Not that times are that good.

 

[Thalassamania]

Oh, come on now, Thal . . . I know you are one of the "grand old men" of scuba, but this claim is ridiculous . . .

Since 1060 is about six years before the Battle of Hastings, I have to assume that was a typo and that I meant 1960s.

Sorry for any confusion.

Maybe we should be asking the students IE. the customer what they want out of a class. It can be discussed all day here, that and a quarter will get you a gum ball. Like many discussions on SB this is rather pointless as no one here has the power to change anything. Some of you are instructors so you can make changes in how you teach, but AFAIK no one here sets policy.

Ah ... so we should do that which got is to this pass in the first place and again ask the inmates how they'd like to see the asylum run?

I don't know. Thal has often said that scuba instruction started to go downhill at the Norman invasion, when all the best instructors were killed in the Battle of Hastings.

That and all of those Stinkin' FROGmen.

The way to make things better, IMO, is to offer good and through instruction, classroom, pool, and open water. It does not matter what your agency.
The person who has decided to take the challenge of going beneath the waves, to go on vacation, to join a friend or family member, whatever the reason,
they can-we can-all benefit from the most important link in diving-The diving Instructor.

Since I have been working with my friends in Japan for 20 years I know that a Sensei-Sensei (先生^?) is a Japanese word that basically means "person born before another."^[1] In general usage, it means "master" or "teacher,"^[2] and the word is used as a title. The word is also used to show respect to someone who has achieved a certain level of mastery in an art form or some other skill: accomplished novelists, musicians, and artists for example are addressed in this way. The two characters that make up the term can be directly translated as "born before" and implies one who teaches based on wisdom from age and experience.^[4]

I have been quite fortunate to have several such teachers.

As ZKY noted: "People do have the power to change things".

If dive instructors are, "the most important link in diving," why are they not paid more and why don't they get benefits?

I find it impossible to believe a fill runs the shop $7 cost. I also don't know how instruction is a loss leader at $500 per student, or around $250 to do only classroom. They generally sell most new divers some gear, likely $250 minimum. A1 seems to be doing well and I know instruction over there is not losing $$$. They used to average 1000 students a year about a decade ago. It would be interesting to know what they are doing now.

Denver is a good market and Denver supports around 10 dive shops. Not that times are that good.

It doesn't that's BS, but if you pile a bunch of you fixed costs onto those cost centers you can make it look that way.

 

[Akimbo]

…If dive instructors are, "the most important link in diving," why are they not paid more and why don't they get benefits?...

Because there’s an endless supply of people who will do anything so they can afford diving, get shop discounts, and free air! Think back… sound familiar?