Machine guns on the Great Lakes

[robzr]

The insignificant lead imports aren't really of much concern to me. Grossly misleading the public is. The Michigan Environmental Council wants the people to believe that this is a serious pollution concern, when in reality it barely merits mention in the appendices of grey literature. I do not think they understand lead pollution all that well. Or water pollution at all, for that matter.

The council would have been much better off arguing a case with noise pollution against waterfowl. It's a weak argument, but it's not ridiculous.

When did they "grossly mislead the public"? According to the EPA, Michigan introduced 4069 lbs of lead into surface waters in 2004. The Coast Guard is proposing dumping an additional 7000 lbs of lead into the Great Lakes annually via this program. That sounds like a significant amount to me - probably worth doing a study or two on, and doing a cost/benefits analysis of alternatives (like lead free ammunition). And maybe the public, who has to live with the consequences of this and other environmental issues, has a right to know whats going on and make informed decisions.

The Michigan Environmental Council is asking for studies and public hearings to be done. If it's an insignificant amount of lead, then whats wrong with that?

Rob

 

[Notso_Ken]

Oh man, this argument is so weak, I weep for peoples' intelligence. 3,100 kilos is a drop in the bucket, compared to all the point and non-point sources that have to be entering those lakes annually. Heck, even the lead fishing sinkers lost every year have to add up to some serious poundage.

In addition to which Pb is not exactly a highly reactive element. If they were depositing lithium or sodium, it would be a different matter. But lead, come on.

Oh, BTW, anybody here happen to know anything about the military's free-fire zones over the Great Lakes? How much airborne-fired ammunition has gone into the lakes from that? (I've been on B-52s doing fire-outs over Superior, haven't done it over the other lakes, but I do know where the warning areas are for those as well. 4-50 cals firing at full rate pumped out a few bullets. the 20mm cannon on the H model didn't put out as many, but they were each bigger.).

 

[robzr]

Well I think we are in agreement that adding a toxic heavy metal to the great lakes
at a rate nearly double that of an entire state is probably not beneficial for the environment. The question is, how bad is it? I don't know, I haven't heard anything on this board that leads me to know you guys know. So I guess I don't see why anyone needs to villify those who think it would be responsible to find out first.

Whats wrong with studies? Public hearings? This is still a democracy, right?

Rob

 

[biloy53]

I don't see this as an issue. If the CG needs to designate areas to practice safely then have at it. I sell and lead dives out of Chicago. We have been advising The Warrant Officers of unusual activity from our charters (rebreathers and DPVs) anyway as a result of increased security post 9/11. What's the big deal of giving way to an active fire zone.

 

[Notso_Ken]

Well I think we are in agreement that adding a toxic heavy metal to the great lakes
at a rate nearly double that of an entire state is probably not beneficial for the environment. The question is, how bad is it? I don't know, I haven't heard anything on this board that leads me to know you guys know. So I guess I don't see why anyone needs to villify those who think it would be responsible to find out first.

Whats wrong with studies? Public hearings? This is still a democracy, right?

Rob

No, you misunderstood me. Lead is a NON-reactive metal. It sits there. Leave it alone and it leaves you alone.

Nothings wrong with public hearings. As long as there's someone there that knows a little about chemistry.

 

[robzr]

No, you misunderstood me. Lead is a NON-reactive metal. It sits there. Leave it alone and it leaves you alone.

Nothings wrong with public hearings. As long as there's someone there that knows a little about chemistry.

Well, the 890,000 children ages 1 to 5 have elevated blood lead levels high enough to affect intelligence, growth and development might disagree with you...or the 3 million waterfowl who have died annually due to ingestion of residual lead shot.

But really, I'm not an expert... just a guy who thinks its "not ridiculous" to have some people who ARE experts to examine it.

Rob

 

[Doc]

But really, I'm not an expert... just a guy who thinks its "not ridiculous" to have some people who ARE experts to examine it.

They already have. They agree. If you don't try and dig it up, it will never be a hazard.

Lack of information with the outright lies and ignoring of science is what closed down Chicago's Lincon Park Gun Club. That, and the hubris of the members. Old information.

I had to operate a committe boat for a Chicago Sailing Club Serries. The 10 gauge blanks were wet and unusable. I used my .45 ACP sidearm the entire 1985 season.

Who's to know what damage I caused?

The Great Lakes Naval Training Center has a 50 Billion Brazillian Dollar state-of-the -art firing range that is only used with tungsten bullets due to lead concerns- something absolutely obviated by this facility- not a worry.

Yet- they are forced to train with ammunition that differs from what they will use in combat.

 

[robzr]

They already have. They agree. If you don't try and dig it up, it will never be a hazard.

Lack of information with the outright lies and ignoring of science is what closed down Chicago's Lincon Park Gun Club. That, and the hubris of the members. Old information.

I had to operate a committe boat for a Chicago Sailing Club Serries. The 10 gauge blanks were wet and unusable. I used my .45 ACP sidearm the entire 1985 season.

Who's to know what damage I caused?

The Great Lakes Naval Training Center has a 50 Billion Brazillian Dollar state-of-the -art firing range that is only used with tungsten bullets due to lead concerns- something absolutely obviated by this facility- not a worry.

Yet- they are forced to train with ammunition that differs from what they will use in combat.

The Canadian government publicly expressed concerns about lead toxicity from these exercises, so they apparently do not see this as cut and dry as you do. Given that they share the Great Lakes, I don't think it's out of line that we treat them with some level of respect.

The conservative National Wildlife Federation seems to feel rather strongly that lead toxicity is harmful to wildlife, if I'm reading your remarks correctly, you seem to feel their position has no legitimacy.

"Environmentalists are dubious of the Coast Guard's claims that dumping an estimated 43,000 lead bullets into the lakes each year will have no adverse environmental impact on fish, birds, mammals, plants, or humans. Consistent with the military's view that they should be exempt from environmental regulations, the Coast Guard has not prepared a complete environmental impact statement. Their own internal study says that if the environmental risk reached a rank of 1.00 on their scale, the program would need further study. However, the Coast Guard says the program's risk is 0.96, so they are not concerned. The Coast Guards risk assumptions only assume the shooting will take place for a period of five years, although the Coast Guard has announced no such limit on their plans for shooting in the lakes." (from ilcpj.org)

Some of you seem very quick to dismiss this as a non-issue. I just don't think thats responsible given what is potentially at stake. Time and time again we have underestimated effects of pollution and dumping, and then paid a large price (not just financially) as a result.

I bet a lot of us would disagree on the subject of global warming and co2 levels as well, though perhaps fewer of us than may have a few years ago.

Rob

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Yah dude, that's a really great mindset. People with mindsets like that start unnecessary wars, killing hundreds of thousands of people while being completely counterproductive to the original stated intent. I feel so safe knowing glad people like you vote!

Rob

And people like you are why the scum that are targeted by people supported by me feel they can do whatever they want. Bet you enjoyed that traitorous CNN reporter's piece on a sniper taking out one of our GI's. You probably support bans on people to exercise their second amendment rights too. Just let all the Attah's, Bin Laden's, Escobar's, and all the other scum do what they want. The liberals will love watching each other's heads being sawn off and children being turned on to coke as long as we respect the "rights" of those who would love nothing better than to kill us all. If we had killed hundreds of thousands maybe we would not be bogged down in the cesspool of iraq. We would have shown those who support and allow terrorists to operate that if you do you will die. They would not be so keen on aiding and abetting them then. Go give Ted Kennedy(lifeguard instructor) and Al Gore(inventor of the internet) a hug and Nancy Pelosi(who is nowhere to be found) a kiss. While you are having your little love fest people like me will be supporting those who fight for your "right" to spit in the face of those who have fought and died to keep you from being thrown into a re-education camp for criticizing the government.

 

[robzr]

And people like you are why the scum that are targeted by people supported by me feel they can do whatever they want. Bet you enjoyed that traitorous CNN reporter's piece on a sniper taking out one of our GI's. You probably support bans on people to exercise their second amendment rights too. Just let all the Attah's, Bin Laden's, Escobar's, and all the other scum do what they want. The liberals will love watching each other's heads being sawn off and children being turned on to coke as long as we respect the "rights" of those who would love nothing better than to kill us all. If we had killed hundreds of thousands maybe we would not be bogged down in the cesspool of iraq. We would have shown those who support and allow terrorists to operate that if you do you will die. They would not be so keen on aiding and abetting them then. Go give Ted Kennedy(lifeguard instructor) and Al Gore(inventor of the internet) a hug and Nancy Pelosi(who is nowhere to be found) a kiss. While you are having your little love fest people like me will be supporting those who fight for your "right" to spit in the face of those who have fought and died to keep you from being thrown into a re-education camp for criticizing the government.

Really, when I replied to your first post, I had misread it and over-reacted in my response, and I apologize if I came off like an aggressive dick, which I probably did.

That said, if you really think that liberals like seeing people die, you are way off.

The recent peer reviewed Johns Hopkins study shows with 95% certainty that between 400k - 700k Iraqis have died beyond what the pre-war death rate would account for since the beginning of the war. The recently leaked National Intelligence Estimate seems to directly contradict your assertion that this war is making us safer. If you think that the war in Iraq is doing more good than harm, you and I are living in different realities. But thats probably beyond the scope of this thread.

And I have no idea what coke has to do with this. I can only assume you're talking about the War on Drugs, which seems to have gone marginally better than this War on Terrorism is going. Of course, we've only had 35 years with the War on Drugs, I'm sure in another 30 years we'll have this War on Terrorism licked, too.

Rob